Free Will vs Divine Ordaination

[bees]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Joe Mc,

Many spiritual Masters have said something to the effect that they don’t really have an ‘individual free will’ because they have achieved a realized oneness with the Divine Will, and have become fully conscious dynamic instruments of it in the physical.

Meanwhile there is obviously a limited free-will in the as-yet-ignorant unrealized being, but it turns out to be an effective slavery to ignorance by those very ignorant parts of the being (which the higher tolerates and supports for the acquisition of life-experience on the way to awakening and beyond).

So the apparent paradox is, there is ultimately freedom in being fully surrendered to the Divine Will (which is what a conscious deliberate spiritual practice leads to), while what appears to be ‘free-will’ in the ignorant lower being, is really a bondage to that Ignorance (including physical mortality) - unless or until it is transformed.

As to morality - in the evolution of consciousness, which the procession of life provides (progressively accelerated by the deliberate concentration and intensification spirituality provides) - morality does represent a higher principle than mere selfish unilateral self-interest (the more aggressive, extreme and violent versions being a good definition of ‘criminal’). It makes the mentalized human being a substantially cilivilized animal.

It is the comparative faculty of mind in human beings, which is the origin of morality and ethics (animals don’t have this, they operate on vital instinct alone or for the most part), because mind allows for a comparative rational evaluation of intentions and actions - one relative to another - not simply an animal unilateralism.

However because of an intrinsic ignorance within that relativity originating in the objective comparisons themselves, and importantly, not cognizant of the Divine Will (Truth-Consciousness/Highest most comprehensive Vision for each and all simultaneously/in the moment within the dynamic becoming of Life - morality/ethics is still inferior and ignorant, even if a step in the right direction.

Ultimately everything is created, supported and transformed by the divine, because ultimately everything is The Divine. But in the unrealized stages of Life enmeshed in ignorance (which is also a conditional aspect of the divine), there is a phase where individual free-will is a necessary function of that differentiation, eventually leading to surrendering that so-called ‘freedom’ to the Highest - which is essential to its transformation. iow, Making choices on the way to accepting, intuiting and then becoming the divine will is a necessary responsibility, an unavoidable part of a progression which eventually may lead to the conscious, deliberate acceleration of that progression as the entire life-purpose, which is what spirituality is.


~ J

Jyotir, thanks for this writing, would you consider delaying progression part of "free will" and if so, is it of the higher or ignorance (both which are ultimately from the sane Source.. Or perhaps more correctly stated, the ignorance can be equated as the shadow of the Real but acts in and as itself as shadow "within and therefore bound asignorance, until the 'higher' knows the truth of its identity).

I don't see reconciliation as a problem. One can envision a destiny. There could be many routes to reaching it, some more efficient / fulfilling than others, but many routes all the same.
Think of the Ho Ci Minh trail.

...

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by beesliketoplay

...would you consider delaying progression part of "free will" and if so, is it of the higher or ignorance (both which are ultimately from the sane Source.. Or perhaps more correctly stated, the ignorance can be equated as the shadow of the Real but acts in and as itself as shadow "within and therefore bound asignorance, until the 'higher' knows the truth of its identity).

Hi beesliketoplay,

There is really no ‘delay’ unless conscious and deliberate. Otherwise, the being is simply choosing and having various experiences - or really - God is having the experiences in and through an infinity of differentiated activity which begins as an involution, or ‘oblivion’, a Sacrifice of Self into Inconscience from which it emerges.

Ignorance is therefore a conditional status of the Real.

Human beings are an amalgam of the same in various qualities, ranges, and degrees.
This is what it means ‘made in God’s Image’. We are at once, the Highest and the lowest and everything in between - all available, accessible, attainable.

It is basically by transcending the conditional by a surrender to the unconditional, in and through an increasingly sustained focus of attention on the Real vs. unreal (illusion), that human beings realize True Self (by whatever deliberate ‘method’, i.e., discrimination, devotion, service, meditation, etc.; or combination thereof)

The problem is that, as long as ignorance is the very means of cognition - as with ego/separative consciousness and its modes, goals, and manifestations - the being focuses on just that: chasing permutations of ignorance, false surface appearance, illusion, thus perpetuating it as experience. This isn’t a ‘delay’, but rather ‘normal’ life. Buddhists call this ‘samsara’.

But this is obviously created, sanctioned and supported (and transformed) by the Highest as a conditional Cosmic/Universal reality - not a ‘mistake’ *. We are part and parcel of an evolving multiplicity (evolution of consciousness) as a means of interdependent experience of that One Life so that the Many may realize True Self while differentiated.

Experience incrementally and gradually yields minor realizations indicating more generalized, comprehensive, and greater possibilities for life-purpose and potential (vs. reacting helplessly to consequences of ignorant cognition and action with more of the same).

The incessant dissatisfaction from the pain and suffering intrinsic, and unavoidable to ignorant life gradually is seen/intuited in and through emerging higher light as cause and effect after many, or ‘countless’ iterations of limitation, bondage and dissatisfaction, and progression out of ignorance is seen as possible.

It is when the possibilities of full realization become conscious that the potential can be accelerated and ‘systematically’ progressed, making it inevitable. This is the definition of spirituality (yoga).

Prior to that, people do not see, or only partially see limited cause and effect and merely seek reactive mitigations to specific dissatisfying life-‘events’, but remain unconscious slaves to that generalized ignorance (cause) by continued choice/focus on it in its various surface manifestations.

* The self-conscious intellectual faculty of mind which sees things objectively and dualistically poses the perennial question: "If God is ALL GOOD, why is there so much suffering?" Mind sees this dichotomy based entirely on the false premise created by mind itself - that animal and human cognition and action are the de-facto purpose of life. Mind can’t see the greater purpose of life because mind sees itself - it’s activity - as the purpose and prerogative. And so it suffers in the confusion of that false perception and result (but blames God!) AND refuses to/resists change - because it does what it is....why mind is problematic while at the same time, providing for self-consciousness. It just has to recognize the Real Self of self-consciousness - not the ignorant self.

~ J

[bees]

Jyotir, thanks for your detailed and accurate synthesis of the issues.

I'd like to ask

It is when the possibilities of full realization become conscious that the potential can be accelerated and ‘systematically’ progressed, making it inevitable. This is the definition of spirituality (yoga).

Say one has awakened, to some extent. The unreal is seen, known, perhaps once even gone for the most part, but one falls back - in Buddhist terms - to a mind of samsara. Having gone through the cycle once with genuine and relatively deep insights, one might know the path back (whereby it is already always available) and yet that work is not completed. Regression in this context refers to noise, the ignorant self relives, suffering ensues.

Is not choosing to "practice" an exercise of free will to delay genuine spiritual practice?

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by beesliketoplay

Is not choosing to "practice" an exercise of free will to delay genuine spiritual practice?

Hi beesliketoplay,

My feeling is, if you can ask the question, you must have thought about it yourself.

What's your view?

How would you answer your own question?

~ J

[bees]

(More discomfort )

My answer is yes, it delays spiritual progression, particularly where the individual knows the genuine path.

As to whether it is a delay, I would answer, there is no delay, but there is certainly a mulling in samsara.

As to whether it is an exercise of free will, I need a little more time to consider this..thanks..

[William 辰]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

We are frequency generators. We have the ability to send out vibrations that are in harmony with the universe. We also have the ability to send out vibrations that are not in harmony with the universe, or other human beings or other species, and this is the result of being ignorant of the fact that we're all one, or the structure of the ego who believes itself to be superior to others and thus controlled by the desire to control them through force.

Yes we are all unique, we are all one, we are frequency generators.
But control in itself has absolutely nothing to do with the ego or force. It can be used for both good and bad.

I was reminded by synchronicity about this wonderful Vulcan practice:

"
Structure.
Logic.
Function.
Control.
A structure cannot stand without a foundation.
Logic is the foundation of function.
Function is the essence of control.
I am in control.
"

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Joe Mc,

Many spiritual Masters have said something to the effect that they don’t really have an ‘individual free will’ because they have achieved a realized oneness with the Divine Will, and have become fully conscious dynamic instruments of it in the physical.

Your soul is part of source (a.k.a. God). So, "Divine Will" is another way of saying "The will of your soul". Since your soul is you, "Divine Will" is no different from Free Will once you are connected with your higher self / your soul. Divine Will and Free Will are ultimately one and the same.
And since the only thing your soul wants to do is to be healthy and feel good together with everybody else, there is no rule or logical reason whatsoever that you can not use, or can not be in control.

[bees]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi beesliketoplay,

My feeling is, if you can ask the question, you must have thought about it yourself.

What's your view?

How would you answer your own question?

~ J

My answer is yes.

..

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I don't see reconciliation as a problem. One can envision a destiny. There could be many routes to reaching it, some more efficient / fulfilling than others, but many routes all the same.
Think of the Ho Ci Minh trail.

...

That's quite interesting. There is Simultaneity, free will, no free will, they come and go but that which sees is here at all times has never gone anywhere and never arrived. It 'is' and is unconditioned. In this regard the Story of Free will and pre-ordaination are just that, stories ? I say this in the light of certain synchronicities that happened to me etc., They seemed to have some kind of narrative to them, they had a relevance to something that was happening in my life at that time or before ? They weren't random or else they wouldn't have grabbed my attention, and yet they seemed miraculous too ? Could synchronicities in one's life be seen then as a breaking up of the story of your life at that moment in time, something that shows you that what you experience here is a type of story ? Any explanations how synchronicities are understood in non dual awareness. We could say they are just happening, but if they are miraculous or grab your attention how could this be explained..within the path of non duality without dismissing them as just 'other' or ordinary events ? :)

[Jyotir]

Hi beesliketoplay,

In the final analysis, spirituality must be practical - because ultimately, it includes everything within the individual as a microcosm becoming more conscious, so…

What is ‘my’ necessity?
Eventually that becomes, “What is God’s Necessity?” - the Macrocosm, One Being as the dynamic multiplicity of Nature. (‘awakening’ is the nascent glimmer of the latter question)

The rest follows from that, TOWARDS THAT, and constitutes ‘the journey’ of experience and awareness - Self-discovery - and that has to include action which is either through a ‘personal free will’, as in determining personal necessity at any moment, or a conscious surrender of that to, or permanent realization of the Divine Will in any moment.

That is a long process, because it is comprehensive to all-existence in and through the individual; it means realization of Self, out of a fundamental ignorance or inconscience, through real-life experience - not a facile wishing, or the mere intellectual conceptualization of ideals unactualized.

And it can and usually does mean ‘regression’, for that reason. Once ideals are mentally/intellectually or intuitively identified post-awakening, the various other components /aspects of being often continue to dominate sufficiently to cause the focus of consciousness to fluctuate, to diverge, to regress from, or not pursue that (mentally identified) goal. Really what happens is that some dominant components simply continue to pursue previous goals and modes still held in attachment out of habit and familiarity - even if destructive or unsatisfying. That‘s how strong these forces of Nature are.

But God supports these regressions as part of the journey (and the Divine Will) because not only is God the Goal - God is also the regression from it, what the seeker is holding on to (even if at one time was a progressive attainment); what the seeker is progressing towards (even if only mentally identified), but importantly - -

God is also the emergent aspiration to consciously deliberately seek truth AS the Divine Will, which is the acceleration and concentration of the general trend: the evolution of consciousness

- - of which even a nascent individual awakening is part of. Thus, God/The Highest knows and is, where you are coming from, and where you are going. So how could you really be lost?

Well, how about if 'you' think you know more than God about ‘where you are going’? (haha) That’s the mind - doubting, presuming, rationalizing, remaining attached to its own ignorant cognition and action - which is the substantial part of a ‘personal’ free-will.

Ultimately, free-will/Divine Will are names of the same thing because the former is always subsumed and supported by the latter - but it’s the realization of that - the transformation, and what becomes realized and embodied along the way that constitutes the human experience.

Within that, and importantly, when ego (ignorance/separative consciousness in personal form) is dominant, active, or simply present in any measure - which is true for many cycles - its expediency as an instrument cannot be ignored / brushed-off as a philosophical convenience or intellectual indulgence. And that intellectual conceit presents a hazard for many aspirants. Much of ‘spiritual practice’ involves the various disciplines of dragging, coaxing, flattering, even tricking the ego to take another step - progressively, so that one day it wakes up and says, “Oh yeh, now I see what is happening. I can assist, not resist”. That's called surrender, an advanced stage.

Prior to that, ego is a falsehood that increasingly wants to realize the Truth, because the Truth created the ‘falsehood’ as a condition for that realization in the first place.

Philosophical inquiry and debate (e.g., Is there ‘free-will’?) is largely an (apparently) organized way of not coming to any practical conclusion about reality. It won’t allow itself, as it is dependent on its own ‘institutional mandate’, which is a self-circumscription of inherently limited capacity to realize or self-discover. It’s charter is the elevation of an intrinsic mental ambiguity or doubt to central focus/sole purpose; or it is ideals mentally conceptualized without effectuation of their embodiment - or both - which turns out, isn’t very practical, and becomes an end (or dead-end) in and of itself.

The Zen Buddhist story of the cook and the water jar is a good encapsulation.

~ J