Nonduality and "The Guru".

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Post 41 is a post responding to the points in your original content; it seem that you don't like challenges to what you say, nor like to have your lone "Guru" pulpit challenged. (something about insecurity and beliefs). The fact is you do not know who is enlightened, but claiming that others can't, or that teachers/Gurus are not real (nor need to be followed) is disingenuous at best, and deceptive at worst. Also continuing to proclaim there is no path in non-duality isn't helpful, and as I said somewhere else, such a mind incessantly will be unable to stand up to challenges. Krishnamurti may have been speaking from a place of Truth, but not everyone who imitates such speech is coming from the same place {of Truth}/

I'd be interested in your thoughts:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...70#post1661970

Thank you.

Well I suppose that is some attempt to address the issues raised by this thread. The main one I would describe as whether devotion to a guru as enlightened is helpful to seekers. I suggest that it is not at all helpful as having to establish whether they are enlightened or not, and coping with any fall from grace, are just more obstacles placed before seekers who are already burdened enough.

You misunderstand. There is no problem with disagreement. It is the focus on the person rather than the issue that is the problem. A sad tactic which has no place in the attempt to communcate points of view to reach a mutual understanding, which has nothing to do with agreement. I would be happy to continue with you in that undertaking but not the other focus on the person stuff you have been indulging in, which will no longer be responded to, avoiding wasting your time and mine with senseless exchanges.

[blossomingtree]

Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

To all who hope for discussion leading to mutual understanding on this forum, dont let posts such as the one above dominate. Dont be tempted to buy into their trip, it will poison this space for discussion of the issues.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

To all who hope for mutual understanding on this forum, dont let posts such as the one above dominate.

The post was tongue in cheek but the correlation to your original post clear. You talk of cheap tactics but can't stop your own.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

The post was tongue in cheek but the correlation to your original post clear. You talk of cheap tactics but can't stop your own.

To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

[sentient]

There is that much used Buddhist quote:

In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water.
The moon does not demand, “If you open to me, I will do you a favour and shine on you.” The moon just shines.

If “Oneness” is realized (even momentarily), I can’t see the difficulty in recognizing other vessels that have also done so.
Sudden recognition, then shift into that shared presence/oneness – an oneness reflection that is both of you, yet neither of you.
In those instances both vessels light up, so there is a sense of radiance, light.

Blossomingtree mentioned “Beings of Light”, and I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Well I suppose that is some attempt to address the issues raised by this thread. The main one I would describe as whether devotion to a guru as enlightened is helpful to seekers. I suggest that it is not at all helpful as having to establish whether they are enlightened or not, and coping with any fall from grace, are just more obstacles placed before seekers who are already burdened enough.

it is like, if you are a child maybe there is some point in taking instruction in things you know nothing about... to kind of get heeled in it... but once you have been through a certain number of lifetimes you start getting a sense that something isn't working, that if you continue to take the schooling as it has always been given, you will get the same results you always got in the past. For some reason that seems disliked, so you start trying to look at things kind of from your own perspective more instead of relying so much on being told how it is by others. you've got some valid points, how DO you tell whether someone really is 'englightened' when you have no clue what that even means? And there are a lot of people playing others for fools these days...

but at the same time, from a 'practical' standpoint, you want someone who knows what they are doing to fix the pipes so that it will minimize your costs and maximize the time the pipes actually STAY fixed.

The question then becomes, WHY it is important that we do things from the 'practical' standpoint vs doing them some other way? WHY do we have to minimize costs? WHY do we have to have them stay fixed for a maximal time?

Why do we have to be so enamored of getting things done, in the proper time and way, that we aren't allowed to be like little children and play?

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

it is like, if you are a child maybe there is some point in taking instruction in things you know nothing about... to kind of get heeled in it... but once you have been through a certain number of lifetimes you start getting a sense that something isn't working, that if you continue to take the schooling as it has always been given, you will get the same results you always got in the past. For some reason that seems disliked, so you start trying to look at things kind of from your own perspective more instead of relying so much on being told how it is by others. you've got some valid points, how DO you tell whether someone really is 'englightened' when you have no clue what that even means? And there are a lot of people playing others for fools these days...

but at the same time, from a 'practical' standpoint, you want someone who knows what they are doing to fix the pipes so that it will minimize your costs and maximize the time the pipes actually STAY fixed.

The question then becomes, WHY it is important that we do things from the 'practical' standpoint vs doing them some other way? WHY do we have to minimize costs? WHY do we have to have them stay fixed for a maximal time?

Why do we have to be so enamored of getting things done, in the proper time and way, that we aren't allowed to be like little children and play?

I first heard the idea "All is One" from another but it could just as easily been in a book. I did not have to investigate the person to consider the idea. The words stood alone in the meaning regardless of who was expressing them. So the obstacle of first having to establish the integrity of the messenger is avoided. It is also possible to avoid the burden of first having to discover whether the idea is true by transcending the idea that truth can be known, as there may always be something hidden that contradicts it.

Characters vary. Why some need a Guru may be for the reasons you mention. My own feeling is that it may simply be a result of the long tradition in The East that there is such a person as an infallible, almost divine Guru. Or it might just be becuse of the Beatles:)

Probably all three.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by sentient

There is that much used Buddhist quote:

If “Oneness” is realized (even momentarily), I can’t see the difficulty in recognizing other vessels that have also done so.
Sudden recognition, then shift into that shared presence/oneness – an oneness reflection that is both of you, yet neither of you.
In those instances both vessels light up, so there is a sense of radiance, light.

Blossomingtree mentioned “Beings of Light”, and I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

Ok if that works for you. Others find the consideration of ideas sufficient for progress regardless of who expresses them and have no requirement for devotion. Thats ok too but is often condemned by Guru devotees as being mind or ego. One size does not fit all.

Getting rid of requirements reduces the burden on seekers. Some may still wish to carry them and feel they are getting somewhere but others should not be condemned who see no reason to carry them, that all is already perfect just as it is.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

I first heard the idea "All is One" from another but it could just as easily been in a book. I did not have to investigate the person to consider the idea. The words stood alone in the meaning regardless of who was expressing them. So the obstacle of first having to establish the integrity of the messenger is avoided. It is also possible to avoid the burden of first having to discover whether the idea is true by transcending the idea that truth can be known, as there may always be something hidden that contradicts it.

Characters vary. Why some need a Guru may be for the reasons you mention. My own feeling is that it may simply be a result of the long tradition in The East that there is such a person as an infallible, almost divine Guru. Or it might just be becuse of the Beatles:)

Probably all three.

I think this thread demonstrates some good reasons why teachers/Guides are actually helpful. {"Jesus, please stay at the door - I told you you're not welcome or needed - what is wrong with you?!"}

And the reason is that non-duality is not just a concept or idea, in my understanding, and when it's just picked up at that conceptual level it won't really help with a life transformation or how to approach life/relationships/interactions/animals/people/plants/trees/thesky/theclouds etc.
i.e. It's just a concept and superficial at best. "Life is perfect as it is" is refuted by reality when it is false. Why it then wants to spread/continue a weak chain-link to others is a question mark as well for me.