How to practically force your ego to die?

[Mitodin]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Yah, I am with you on this, Mito!

I went to your website and downloaded your book. Looking forward to checking it out.

[Miss Hepburn]

Mitodin - good points, post 117.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Mitodin

Since I have also used a word like 'divine' with no intention of co-opting its usage, I thought I would spend a few words explaining how I, at my most Humpty Dumptyest, choose to use the word.

The Divine is the most profound aspect of reality, which is true in all aspects of it. It is also, fundamentally, simply who we really are. Thus to speak of the Divine as something other than our very own being is to distance ourselves from who we really are and our part in things being as they are.

I don't see any fundamental purpose, outside of the fact that all that is, and all that we are, is a timeless expression of divine will. Or put another way, we are what we are because we ourselves, as divinity itself, have chosen to experience limitation. And in this sense, our experience of limitation is divinely precious.
'Divine play' is, from one 'divine' perspective, an apt description to me of this many-angled world of joys and pains.

I therefore, also can't concur with the sentiment that to discover our divine existence is our true aim to which we must aspire. For as I see it, all our aspirations are ultimately borne out of our very own divine will to experience all these many possibilities of existence, including that of obscuration and limitation.

That we should wish to discover our true nature, or offer ourselves in service to humanity, is only natural, for they reflect the natural currents of our unobstructed nature. I might even go as far as saying that in time, our heart's innermost desire will eventually reveal itself as just that.

But there is no compulsion from anywhere but your own heart to pursue such a path. If there is a mandate from divinity (and if there were, it would simply be one you yourself set forth from your divine will) it is simply to make what you wish of this cacophony/symphony of experience we have immersed ourselves in, and to unfold all the possibilities we desire from it. The more true we are to our hearts, the more it will naturally align itself with the unobstructed currents of the divine nature that it is an expression of.
Our limitation is, ironically, our very own expression of our own freedom to be limited. And we are equally free to explore limitation further, or pursue that which is beyond limitation.

Best Wishes

Well said, and I completely concur, Mitodin.

An excerpt from my book, wherein and whereby I hope to 'correct' what I think are gross miss-apprehensions in regards the concept of 'Divinity':

In trying to come to terms with the suffering they experience and witness, for example, many, often quite elaborately, rationalize that they and others must in some way be deficient and unworthy of the ‘goodness’ they desire; or, if their self-esteem remains intact, that what they’ve been given or are getting in terms of personal experience and opportunity is unjust or insufficient, in one way or another an unfair or ‘bad’ deal. Those who presume that suffering is a consequence of personal deficiency and unworthiness tend to oversubmissively accept and put up with what they then believe is ‘deserved’ misfortune in their own case; also, to the degree they project similar ‘justification’ outward, to condone neglect and ill-treatment of others who they consider ‘undeserving’ as well as do so themselves, without being conscious that they thereby really betray and violate the Spirit of Life. Those who don’t cotton to the idea that they or others are deficient or unworthy, on the other hand, if and to the degree they don’t recognize that unhappiness is subjectively determined, tend to ‘righteously’ rebel against and struggle to preclude experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction to the point where they allow their desire for whatever they consider to be (more) ideal to 'blind' them to the harm that they do and the penalty-exacting repercussions they set in motion when they zealously try to make the flow of the stream of Life conform to their wishes—issues vital to ecosystemice balance and healthy communal development are then blithely overlooked and ignored.

Whichever such variety of deludedness (or mixture of them) people get caught up in, there’s hell to 'pay'. As long as it is not properly diagnosed and dispelled, the jaundice engendered by disappointment and dissatisfaction keeps on compounding itself, since individuals then either actively or passively collude with and participate in unwholesome treatment of themselves or others in the world around them. Though they may temporarily enjoy some degree of personal or vicarious gratification along the way, they thereby directly or indirectly (by way of repercussion, since we are all interconnected) help increase the level of their unhappiness and discontentment. This makes it even harder for them to positively appreciate and lovingly respond to the flow of Life and circumstance as they actually are, so they spiral downward into an ever more infernally convoluted, negative-attitude driven condition. Ultimately, if nothing interrupts and reverses such progression, the spell of Negativity may become so great that it completely “blind[s] their eyes, and harden[s] their heart[s]” [citation omitted] to the wonder and potential for creative development inherent in [all] Being.

Every developing soul encounters this ‘problem’ many times over—it presents itself in a variety of guises as we proceed. The more intelligent and sensitive we become, the more subtly discriminating and refined the ways in which we conceive that we, others and situational circumstance would be more 'ideal'. And, because we can then also more imaginatively envision and more inventively pursue their actualization, we become more prone to getting caught up (or ‘lost’) in yearning for and lusting after such conceptions of ‘greater’ goodness and, because it appears pale in contrast, to not appreciate and so not lovingly [though many such advocate doing so out of a sense of 'duty'!] act to enhance what is; in the extreme, to denigrate and disparage it as having no inherent goodness and value at all. (Aside from the forementioned yearning for and lusting after ‘greater’ goodness and denigration and disparagement of what is present and available, there are other indicators that one has gotten ‘stuck’ in terms of the problem: If and as prolonged or intense enough disappointment and dissatisfaction is suffered as a result of not having one’s ideal-based desires fulfilled, one may become cynical about and unenthusiastic, avoidant and sloppy in relation to apparently ‘ordinary’ matters one must deal with, as well as reactively loath and even grow to hate and want to destroy aspects of Life one considers non-ideal altogether.)

The ‘solution’, in each and every case, lies in becoming aware of how fixation on particular ideals and derivative experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction cut us off from perceiving, relishing and creatively dealing with the exquisite Isness of Being and Becoming that is Ever-Present and Ever-Ongoing in ourselves, others and the world around us, and therefore diligently identifying and choosing to emotionally decathect from and transcend such personal fancies and aversions and associated conditioning. Only if and as we stop holding onto particular likes and dislikes and jettison negative attitudes deriving from consequent experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction do we rediscover and revive what was lost when we emerged from the simplicity of naiveté—the paradisiacal state enjoyed by Adam and Eve before they ‘fell’ from grace, in the Garden of Eden.

Many don’t make the grade when ‘tested’, however. Because they are mentally and emotionally fixated on pursuing and avoiding, respectively, personal fancies and aversions, and have become jaundiced by consequent suffering of disappointment and dissatisfaction, they fail to see, appreciate and make the most of things as they really are, and so don’t progress to a ‘higher’ level of experience and actualization. Though brilliant breakthroughs of Intelligence periodically reillumine and lead to full realization of the fact that each and every being is an expressive aspect of Creativity (That which has been referred to as 'God', championed as the one and only 'Absolute Good', and extolled as the 'Origin', 'Essence' and 'Eternal Home' of all Being), only those who have devel*oped sufficient understanding of and faith in the amplitude and adequacy of Life’s process to unambivalently embrace and constructively deal with the ‘world’ of their perception and experience, however deficient or terrible aspects of it may seem, are then able to cast aside and divest themselves of the 'veil' of pejorative judgmentalism that otherwise entangles the human psyche in disappointment and dissatisfaction and causes it to become enmeshed in a state of angst and unhappiness.

Comprehending the fact that the power and vitality of Creativity are ubiquitous and eternally ongoing, and that they, others and everything that happens are integral features of Its glorious expression, they recognize their idealization and corresponding awfulization fantasies to be the delusional constructs that they really are, and choose to psychospiritually disengage from any judgment or ‘sense’ that any attribute or circumstance of Life is ‘not good enough’ or ‘too bad’ to accept and creatively deal with. With a transcendentally positive attitude, they embrace and dedicate themselves to augmenting the value and potential inherent in their and others’ being and circumstance, regardless of its form or state, past or present. In due course, this results in their breaking free of the deadly downward drag of Negativity and finding their way ‘back’—no longer naive as Adam and Eve were, but appreciatively aware of what they and those around them are and are part of—into blissful Life-communion. (If not so already, depending on how you ‘view’ Life and, consequently, choose to proceed, you might, become an illumined and, consequently, illuminating one of their number in relatively short order.)

The rest become so convinced of and dismayed by what, in comparison with the ideals they conceive of and desire, appear to be ‘bad’ or ‘not good enough’ aspects of being that, even when informed and advised otherwise,b they persist in regarding Divinity and Divine Life as either non-existent or exceptional, something ‘above’ and ‘beyond’ the ken of ‘ordinary’ earthly existence. They consequently cannot help but think, feel and act as though they and others are, to one degree or another, existentially vulnerable, insignificant and lacking. The fragility, paltriness and poverty such individuals mistakenly believe is their and others’ real condition causes them to either despair or constantly want and try to gain more than they have and become more secure, impressive and powerful than they are, as well as to compensate themselves or those they care for as much as they can for not being sufficiently so (hence the incessant control-, comfort-, pleasure- and excitement-seeking activity [including the other-worldly 'pie-in-the-sky' variety!] of so many of our fellow beings).

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Taking ego to be the belief that we are only the mind-body ...
Even if by specious reasoning ego prompts us to strive to transcend limitation ...
The process of striving strengthening ownership over such perceived attainment ...

Questions about ‘why are we here?’ and now that we are, what do we do? ...
Or we may ask as Ramana did ‘who am I?’ ...
Paradox being, who is the questioner so questioning or searching ...

Our attention flowing outwards since external polarity of senses is dominant ...
Awareness unchanging even in body aging and thought patterns shifting ...
So we see the difference between the external ephemeral and internal eternal ...
Looking for the eternal, we merge attention and awareness (object & subject) ...

Getting to ... awareness without thought
No identity or ego searching
Simply awareness present, attention still

Mind-body vaporised
What remains?
We are That

***

[Shivani Devi]

How I see it..FWIW

What is it that wants to kill the ego if not the ego?

In this case, it is nothing but the desire of the ego to commit suicide...and the ego isn't going to do that.

The ego will die automatically if it is starved of attention, so all the ego-based desires of "killing it" is still focusing on the ego.

It is why people with anxiety disorder find it difficult to heal from anxiety because "I must get rid of my anxiety" only reinforces the fact they have anxiety.

"Ego" is too wide of a generic concept to say: "I must kill it" because what are you referring to anyway?

If you get impatient easily, work on that.
If anger is your problem, work on that.
If you are obsessed with your own needs and desires, work on that.
If laziness or lack of motivation is your problem, work on that...

If you cultivate positive, helpful qualities then what is referred to as "ego" in the Yogic sense of the word will go into submission anyway...it will be effortless.

Also, the distinction needs to be made - through discernment, what you consider to be "ego" vs what others judge your character to be.

For example, you may be helping someone..doing the best you can do, however, because the needs of the other is still not being met, they may say you are being "egotistical" so learn how to differentiate the source from the projection.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Hmmm ---reasons...something to think about (back later)---off the top
what I've gleaned from all my reading...that I agreed with? Not sure.

I know the ego is not a bad thing---just does bad things sometimes ---like the holds grudges, example.

I use the example of the little boy jumping from the dock, splashing and
smiling excitedly saying ,"MOM! Did you see that!!!!?"
That's ego, too ---not all bad - to those that think it is.
.............

Oh, wait - Wayne Dyer, just remembered, used to say something is from the Lower Ego self ---or that's from the Higher ego self.
Is that what you mean-- I'm separating the ego into, 'not ego, that's the Higher Self?'
Cuz if it is, Oh.

This is a Spiritual forum, the word 'ego' has been imported from psychoanalysis and has been redefined as nothing more than a collection of judgements, character flaws and behavioural disorders that have been objectified. Yet here we are with yet another thread of waxing Spiritual about the ego. And nobody says "Wait! We got the wrong word. We should be talking about Ahamkara because not only does that make sense of it, it's the same model as Jung's." Lower Ego Self and Higher Ego Self is Freud's model of the ego, with the id, the ego and the superego.


When you get past the urban myth ego, something very Spiritual happens.

Originally Posted by Rah nam

I would not kill it if you like to stay here.
Without the Ego no physical experience.

Ticker-tape parade, marching bands, dancing girls.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

Taking ego to be the belief that we are only the mind-body ...
Even if by specious reasoning ego prompts us to strive to transcend limitation ...
The process of striving strengthening ownership over such perceived attainment ...

Questions about ‘why are we here?’ and now that we are, what do we do? ...
Or we may ask as Ramana did ‘who am I?’ ...
Paradox being, who is the questioner so questioning or searching ...

Our attention flowing outwards since external polarity of senses is dominant ...
Awareness unchanging even in body aging and thought patterns shifting ...
So we see the difference between the external ephemeral and internal eternal ...
Looking for the eternal, we merge attention and awareness (object & subject) ...

Getting to ... awareness without thought
No identity or ego searching
Simply awareness present, attention still

Mind-body vaporised
What remains?
We are That

***

'My' projection is: 'Mind' is an inseparable attribute or faculty of each and every 'That' and, presumptively at least, of 'That' Itself. The same is true of 'Spirit', i.e. 'Motive' or 'Will', in 'my' view.

'My' observation is that 'you' have egotistically (i.e. mentally and spiritually) chosen to reduce 'That' to "awareness present" and nothing else.

This is not a sustainable choice, IMO, as evidenced by the fact that 'you' (ergo 'ego') chose to share 'your' view with 'me' (ergo 'ego') and 'others' (ergo 'egos') here - which indicates a kind of 'hypocrisy' (which 'I' presume must be un-mind-conscious in 'your' case) underlying 'your' pose-itionality - it looks-n-sound like 'hypocrisy' in 'my' mind-based view and opinion, that is.

That 'you' don't label/characterize what 'you' say as base-ically just being 'your' view/theory/projection and thereby implicitly 'claim' it to be 'absolute' 'truth' is a perfect example of what 'I' often criticize and object to as being a deceptive attempt to co-opt 'the truth' about our Reality.

S/he that hath ear that 'hear', let her/him 'hear'.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Rah nam

In my understanding Ego = Body/Mind System
I would not kill it if you like to stay here.
Without the Ego no physical experience.

It isn't life or being that is to be annihilated - just the false cognition of it.

Spirit/Supreme Being has no ego - except as a transient condition of false separative identity in and through us, an illusion we experience. Supreme Being in one status is in fact the physical ITSELF as the Cosmic Self, but importantly knows Itself as THAT, and in all statuses whether differentiated or not/Cosmic or Transcendent. We don't, and we see ourselves (falsely) as separate. That is what ego is and does.

It is the possibility for realization of our Divinity - knowing Self as One in all statuses and forms of being that makes removal of the ego - not individuation per se - the entire crux of the matter, and also where the apparent and persistent confusion lies.

Just because a drop may realize itself as the ocean does not mean (as many here argue incorrectly, actually based on a fallacious presumption of ego) that the ocean cannot then know itself as many, or any drop/s, e.g. that there is only dissolution in a vast infinite undifferentiated oneness - - but not many-ness. That premise itself comes from an ego-generated fear and insecurity. The superseding of that fear is one of the major hurdles spiritual practice requires.

The common speciously reasoned posture for the necessity of ego preservation is basically unspiritual, because it cannot lead to the realization of true self. Rather, it prevents that realization by its very own self-preservation; it maintains its separative, false, limited identity as seen in and though the separative cognition (mind/vital/physical) - which must be released.

That is the purpose of spirituality: to realize true identity by identification not with the false-self of separative ego cognition (illusion), but in identification with the transcendent identity of Spirit which isn't really divided as ego qualifies it, but which is simply differentiated, and knows true Identity of Self in any status.

In Spirit we are One - not divided.

If ego was truly indispensible we would not have that opportunity - Self-realization would be impossible.
The fact that ego is dispensible (and must eventually be dispensed with), is the very nature and purpose of that opportunity for Self-realization, and importantly, its means.

~ J

[Rah nam]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

It isn't life or being that is to be annihilated - just the false cognition of it.

Spirit/Supreme Being has no ego - except as a transient condition of false separative identity in and through us, an illusion we experience. Supreme Being in one status is in fact the physical ITSELF as the Cosmic Self, but importantly knows Itself as THAT, and in all statuses whether differentiated or not/Cosmic or Transcendent. We don't, and we see ourselves (falsely) as separate. That is what ego is and does.

It is the possibility for realization of our Divinity - knowing Self as One in all statuses and forms of being that makes removal of the ego - not individuation per se - the entire crux of the matter, and also where the apparent and persistent confusion lies.

Just because a drop may realize itself as the ocean does not mean (as many here argue incorrectly, actually based on a fallacious presumption of ego) that the ocean cannot then know itself as many, or any drop/s, e.g. that there is only dissolution in a vast infinite undifferentiated oneness - - but not many-ness. That premise itself comes from an ego-generated fear and insecurity. The superseding of that fear is one of the major hurdles spiritual practice requires.

The common speciously reasoned posture for the necessity of ego preservation is basically unspiritual, because it cannot lead to the realization of true self. Rather, it prevents that realization by its very own self-preservation; it maintains its separative, false, limited identity as seen in and though the separative cognition (mind/vital/physical) - which must be released.

That is the purpose of spirituality: to realize true identity by identification not with the false-self of separative ego cognition (illusion), but in identification with the transcendent identity of Spirit which isn't really divided as ego qualifies it, but which is simply differentiated, and knows true Identity of Self in any status.

In Spirit we are One - not divided.

If ego was truly indispensible we would not have that opportunity - Self-realization would be impossible.
The fact that ego is dispensible (and must eventually be dispensed with), is the very nature and purpose of that opportunity for Self-realization, and importantly, its means.

~ J

It does not matter how you see and understand the ego.
Once you understand and see the different consciousness streams within the One you might understand what I am trying to say. How we can be different within the One. Why we are not the body/mind system yet still can have a 3D learning experience, if that is what we are having right now.
The body/mind system is part of the planetary consciousness stream, the Logos, yet we are spirit from different streams of consciousness, here to take part in this game, play, experiment..... call it what you like.
Make peace with your Ego = body/mind system and it will come along for the ride. Fight it and it will fight back. Rather then being in the drivers seat you might be the back seat driver.
Be well