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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #11  
Old 24-03-2017, 04:06 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
The now without the you.

There is no now without a you to experience it
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  #12  
Old 24-03-2017, 05:22 PM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
There is no now without a you to experience it

I was defining "you" as an assertion of self. One can not assert a self and thus experience phenomena as empty. The phrase "empty phenomena roll on" is just a reference to an experience resulting from a certain self awareness.
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  #13  
Old 24-03-2017, 07:01 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
I was defining "you" as an assertion of self. One can not assert a self and thus experience phenomena as empty. The phrase "empty phenomena roll on" is just a reference to an experience resulting from a certain self awareness.


' Empty phenomena roll on ' refers to cause and effect...
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  #14  
Old 24-03-2017, 09:02 PM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
' Empty phenomena roll on ' refers to cause and effect...

Yea true. I was referring to the action/state of the perceiver in the quote:

Quote:
No doer of the deeds is found, No one who ever reaps their fruits; Empty phenomena roll on: This only is the correct view.

Fundamentals of Buddhism: Four Lectures", by Nyanatiloka Mahathera. Access to Insight (Legacy Edition), 1 December 2013,
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  #15  
Old 26-03-2017, 06:30 PM
firstandlast firstandlast is offline
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Emptiness is recognition of the qualities inherent to everything which only exist when in relationship to everything, and that no quality is inherent to anything except that nothing that is all things that give it such a quality--

It is that, all things arise dependently upon that which contrasts to give definition to it, else no definition arises--

It is that, without negative space; no positive space can be recognized-- Without positive space, no such negative space--

Even stillness is dependent on movement; and movement dependent on stillness; or the all pervading upon the phenomenal it pervades, and the phenomenal on that all pervading--

Emptiness is beyond it all; and not at all beyond it--

Past this there is no arising nor passing, nor coming together nor coming apart-- There is no desire; there is no effort or non-effort-- No change, and no permanence--

But these things, I say there are none of; there are still always all of it is simply recognized, related to differently-- That is the best I can describe it using such terms-- Such are garments, clothes, they are as your body as changeable as death is into birth, and birth into death--
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Do not listen to me if you do not wish to be hypnotized into a misleading worldview and become enslaved by alien godz (some might say hindu)-- By reading my posts, you fully consent to initiation into this cult, which may or may not occur--

Stay off the garden path--
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  #16  
Old 27-03-2017, 03:20 AM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
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true emptiness cannot contain anything, not even emptiness

it contains no assertions about itself

it simply is, without interpretation or an interpreter

emptiness can be completely full
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  #17  
Old 27-03-2017, 04:39 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
true emptiness cannot contain anything, not even emptiness

it contains no assertions about itself

it simply is, without interpretation or an interpreter

emptiness can be completely full

There is this..
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Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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  #18  
Old 03-05-2017, 06:18 AM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
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There is no emptiness without a person, only a person can "color" or declare whatever is as being empty. Though the word empty can also refer to the state of a consciousness while not referring to the experience of such a consciousness. In other words, those who are truly empty, experience fullness. Those who experience emptiness, are stuck within the prison walls of person-hood or ego and so have no qualities of being empty.
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2017, 07:49 AM
Ground Ground is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
There is no emptiness without a person, only a person can "color" or declare whatever is as being empty.
But what if 'a person' turns out to be an emptiness? Can an emptiness ""color" or declare whatever is as being empty" or is there the action of "coloring or declaring" without agent?
And who then is the agent imputing all of this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
Though the word empty can also refer to the state of a consciousness while not referring to the experience of such a consciousness.
Well the word 'empty' may refer to innumerable phenomena because the word 'empty' alone leaves open the question empty of what?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
In other words, those who are truly empty, experience fullness. Those who experience emptiness, are stuck within the prison walls of person-hood or ego and so have no qualities of being empty.
Hmh ... what if your 'other words' are empty of truth?
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2017, 06:06 PM
Bohdiyana Bohdiyana is offline
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Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
There is no emptiness without a person, only a person can "color" or declare whatever is as being empty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
But what if 'a person' turns out to be an emptiness? Can an emptiness ""color" or declare whatever is as being empty" or is there the action of "coloring or declaring" without agent?
And who then is the agent imputing all of this?

But what if 'a person' turns out to be an emptiness?

One can say a person can be an emptiness. No contradiction there. It's basically referring to what responds or doesn't respond. The agent of reaction. The statement is not inferring anything about the experience of such a "person." But then your post got complicated.

Can an emptiness ""color" or declare whatever is as being empty" or is there the action of "coloring or declaring" without agent?
And who then is the agent imputing all of this?


Here we have to get into the words "color" and "declare" and point out what is meant by them. An "empty person" can say whatever they want. But of course whatever they say is an attempt to point somebody else to being empty. At least if that is their motivation in that moment. There are probably a million different motivations they may have in a moment based on their present circumstances, interests, and depth of emptiness. But your statement infers they are talking with somebody else about emptiness or thinking of such. Otherwise the concepts would not come up.

So in this context, the "empty person" is not coloring or declaring anything that is not present. The are referring to what is there in themselves. "Coloring" refers to adding a layer over what is already present. An unneeded layer that only exists to define and contextualize something as something. An empty person using language and words to try to communicate what it is they are experiencing and are as the experiencer, is "coloring" in the sense it is being heard by a colorer. So yea on the hearer side, it is being used to color or experienced as coloring. But the "empty" person is not coloring. They are using "crayons" or words to describe or point to what is present or the way in which now is seen.

Empty "agents," are free to color and declare as much as they want. This does not change their emptiness. Even when empty, we are individuals and our experience is ours and unique. One could experience the source itself and the experience would still be unique because what we are, even as emptiness, is unique and ours alone. See emptiness only describes the state of the being, it does not describe the depth of the state or the nature of the being. Inbedded in the idea of "emptiness" seems to be concepts of perfection but the evolution of conscious energy is unlimited. We can truly find our own niches and corners in the vast realm that is reality. We have our own social groups here and in the non-physical world. We have our own interests and pastimes and relationships. The notion of "perfection" or one "empty" state is not accurate. One is empty and retains their individuality. Of course religions such as Buddhism has conceptualized some lofty end state were we truly become "nothing" but of course this nothing is a something if you reason it out.

But when I make a statement like, Empty "agents," are free to color and declare as much as they want, there is a huge difference between what coloring and declaring is for one who is empty and one who is not. It's like the difference between laughing underwater or on dry land. They are not the same at all. In the empty, concepts can be used to describe the world but they never become the world. In the non-empty, one rarely consciously leaves the conceptual world.

****************************


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Well the word 'empty' may refer to innumerable phenomena because the word 'empty' alone leaves open the question empty of what?.

I get different meanings from your sentence. Like I agree with, Well the word 'empty' may refer to innumerable phenomena.
To me, empty only refers to a particular state of being. So yes such a being can experience anything, (except non-empty being.) The second part of your sentence, because the word 'empty' alone leaves open the question empty of what? I see differently. Empty of what, to me, is not a mystery or non-defined. But then it can be described in a myriad of ways. Like lack of ego, being "personless" awake, unconditioned and on and on, and none of these descriptions can make one find emptiness. All they do is point to a door. The person has to figure out what it "means" and figure out how it is applied or realized, what the action is in the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdiyana
In other words, those who are truly empty, experience fullness. Those who experience emptiness, are stuck within the prison walls of person-hood or ego and so have no qualities of being empty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground
Hmh ... what if your 'other words' are empty of truth?

Well yes they are empty of truth. The only truth is what me and you and everybody else is experiencing. A loving parents points out truths to their children, like don't touch a hot stove, but the truth is not in this instruction, it is in the knowledge of the child. They actualize the teaching and make it a part of their reality. It's the same in spiritual teachings, they are meaningless in themselves, but when they become actualized, then their truth is realized.

you cant get enlightenment by seeking it, you can only make yourself worthy of it
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