Looking for a sutta - can you help?

[cathutch]

Devas, when considered within the 31 planes of existence, are a somewhat troubled reading.
I explain.
If I have understood Buddhism correctly, everything in this world is just fabrication.
And gods (devas,) other creatures (yakkas, men, etc,) are part of these creations.

Karma (a.k.a. Viññāṇa - [the support consciousness (that) is for the purpose of future rebirth. SN 12.12]) is the factor of samsaric creations.
The product of the aggregations of Sankhara Khandha elements (namely bodily, verbal & mental determinations) diffuses through that "support consciouness," to deliver the existential being (through the process of Name & form, organs of senses, contact & the rest.)

As far as devas are concerned, they first attain their existential being by the way of the dependent origination path [from fabrication (Sankhara) to Being (Bhava),] through the human level. They have to pass through humanhood to attain a beinghood (bhavahood) ; and from that bhavahood, they attain their devahood level.

So it is not that devas are "less" than man (as sometimes heard), but just that they have to go through manhood to access their level of devahood.
"At last a human rebirth!" means that it is a chance to enter the path to go further up ; it is the chance to access the realm of the devas.
Later samsaric rebirth will not have to go through the same process ; I guess. They should not "have to" go through the humanhood level.

I suppose that someone who have attain deva's level ; unless he really messes up, should not have to go back through human level once more. Once he enters being level (human,) he just have to dismiss all the previously acquired "khandhas" ; from holding Upadana) to fabrication (Sankhara,) each one in turn - one at a time, without going back. And he should follow the upanisa path as well. That should allow him to have a rebirth at the level he attains during his life time (although he should never wish for it).

Does that make sense?

[jonesboy]

Very nicely said thank you

[sunsoul]

It is often said that the devas are caught up in the pleasures (sukha) and delights and therefore can't attain Buddhahood. This is why they seek a human rebirth as detailed in some of those passages I quoted before..

Also, these six realms of existence are often taken to mean literal states of abode on this plane of existence.

[cathutch]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Very nicely said thank you

Thanks.
I hope that what I will say below, will also make sense.

Originally Posted by sunsoul

It is often said that the devas are caught up in the pleasures (sukha) and delights and therefore can't attain Buddhahood.

One thing still bothers me.

Maybe is it only those devas from the kama loka that have to go back to humanhood level each time*.
They might just be unable to climb over paranimmitavasavatti deva level (#11) to reach the rupa level ; if they are to work for, in this life (and/or wish for a next life,) a catumaharajika, tavatimsa, yama, tusita, nimmanarati, or paranimmitavasavatti deva level.

Maybe the only way to escape, is to head for the rupa loka level as soon as you get into humanhood (or later).

What do you think?

Note: Isn't the Buddha a man that came from the tusita deva level ; and was able to attain Buddhahood, only when he got into Jhana?

* Sometimes they even go to lower levels as well (apaya).

[sunsoul]

The Buddha being born in a deva realm before attaining enlightenment in the human realm obviously strengthens the argument for the special nature of a human birth.. Of course, the Theravada and Mahayana view differs here because in the former he was ready for enlightenment as a human, while in the latter he was already a Buddha and fully realised (and just like an actor in a play).

There are also some exceptions to the general rule where devas gain enlightenment, but these seem to be rare. In the traditional Buddhist sense as depicted in the Pali canon, devas are more like nature spirits and supernatural beings and not eternal divinities as portrayed in other Indian religious literature.

[cathutch]

Originally Posted by sunsoul

The Buddha being born in a deva realm before attaining enlightenment in the human realm obviously strengthens the argument for the special nature of a human birth.. Of course, the Theravada and Mahayana view differs here because in the former he was ready for enlightenment as a human, while in the latter he was already a Buddha and fully realised (and just like an actor in a play).

There are also some exceptions to the general rule where devas gain enlightenment, but these seem to be rare. In the traditional Buddhist sense as depicted in the Pali canon, devas are more like nature spirits and supernatural beings and not eternal divinities as portrayed in other Indian religious literature.

Thanks sunsoul.