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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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Old 04-04-2018, 11:18 PM
H:O:R:A:C:E H:O:R:A:C:E is offline
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 6,899
  H:O:R:A:C:E's Avatar
Originally Posted by markings
Let's start with the definition of truth. There is no such think as personal truth. There is perception, opinion, notions, feelings, urges which are all personal but none can and should be elevated to the level of truth in any sense. To use truth for one's personal experience is to devalue it. That my experience is true does not make it "a truth". The difference is in the longevity of what is described. It may be true that right now I am angry. The truth may be that 5 seconds ago I was angry, but that anger of a while back is not "a truth" because it does not and cannot stand on its own.

There is only the Truth, and it is that which never changes. If it changes it is not Truth.
my sense of it is different. i intuitively believe that "Truth" is unchanging,
and i can reason to such a conclusion as well, and i agree with you on that
point. however, i figure that people can have "personal truths" (small-t),
and that we'd ought to elevate them to Truth (within our own being),
in order to ascertain their validity for us. i'm imagining that "Truth" exists
within each of us, and that it provides the light by which we might see how
other ideas have value for us.

i'm probably 'out of my depth' to have entered into this discussion anyways,
(sorry,) since i'm unfamiliar with the quote which opened the thread, and i'm
thinking that the thoughts expressed there are somewhat 'worrisome'.
although i'm rather pleased to consider myself an "anti-intellectual", i don't
consider knowledge to be undesirable, nor a disease... i'd need to redefine
some words in order to get there.
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Old 11-04-2018, 01:51 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,556
Originally Posted by inavalan
So, you believe that ignorance is bliss ...

Different people use same words with different meanings. For me "natural response" doesn't mean something desirable. Also, for me, "mind" is the inner counterpart of the brain, so, I find it desirable for "mind" to interfere.

It's easy to misunderstand each other.

"A mind is a psychic pattern through which you interpret and form reality." - Seth, Session 763, Page 41

it isn't so much that ignorance is bliss... it is that there is another way to know things beyond the one people know about and agree to. (actually I'm given to understand there are several but this is a taoist discussion so there is a single specific context). But seemingly, going along the lines of what people know and agree to is like putting blinders on and not being able to see/learn about this other way of knowing. The sages take one kind of blinders off (the insistence that knowledge in the way people go about it is itself a good thing and desirable to have) and find themselves in a position to see something else entirely.

So it isn't so much a matter of throwing out life, as finding a new way of life. Although in some ways you have to do the one, to find the other.

As far as mind interfering... when your mind has been set against itself and there is constant fights between one idea and another, you eventually begin to get very tired and eventually decide you don't want your mind interfering. But if you are one of the lucky ones, who hasn't been saddled with that, you might not care either way, or you might like it since you don't have to deal with the intensity of always being 'on'.

So yes I agree we are all on very different pages...
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Old 05-12-2018, 03:51 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by inavalan
there are the four possible cases, progressively better:

to not know that you don't know - the worst
to know that you don't know
to not know that you know
to know that you know - the best

perhaps one step worse might be
to know that which is not

Then again I have overlooked much and wasted countless hours all because
I knew that which was not that really was

It's true, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.... even if it is true.

Last edited by ketzer : 05-12-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:35 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
these guys were awesome! here is my take on this one.

Knowing vs lack of knowing
It is better, lack of knowing
Knowing is a disease.

In the end only when the disease is sick
Appropriate lack of the disease happens.
Sages lack the disease
It happened the disease was sick.

In the appropriate way, lack of the disease happens.

The problem with knowing something is that it often gets in the way of knowing other things. It's like an uncarved block of wood. As soon as you put the knife to it and start carving, as each shaving is removed, what it can be carved into becomes more and more limited.

Too often we like to use our knowledge to point out the speck in the eyes of others, not realizing that our knowledge may be a beam in our own eye.

Perhaps it is better to just be aware of things, not being to quick to know them as truths. That way we we do not blind ourselves to what may be the equivalent truth of their opposites.

"The opposite of every truth is just as true." - Siddhartha, Hermann Hesse

“The opposite of a fact is a falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth.” – Niels Bohr
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Old 13-12-2018, 02:22 AM
ImthatIm ImthatIm is offline
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 173
If your saying your happy not knowing, that's cool.

I think that when you react to situations, you can either react from past experience or flow in the now and "know" what needs done that achieves a balanced outcome.

But then again you can except what is "is" and be aware and observe and let it be what it is and do not judge it.
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Old 14-12-2018, 09:14 AM
markings markings is offline
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 583
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
If your saying your happy not knowing, that's cool.
The Dao De Ching is a spiritual text not a worldly one. It doesn't refer to worldly knowledge. To apply worldly ideas and ideas to spiritual concepts is just plain wrong, useless, misleading, giving wrong results.

Worldly aspects must be evaluated with worldly means, resulting in knowing as it is commonly understood. Spiritual aspects must be approached in a spiritual way which often results in unknowing. This is an unknowing of a different kind to worldly ignorance which every person, including spiritual ones, would consider to be a handicap for living.
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Old 14-12-2018, 01:25 PM
ImthatIm ImthatIm is offline
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 173

Is that so?

If your beyond this world,then no need of worldly things.

To truly know nothing is to do nothing and vanish, so were are the true sages? "vanished" But we are talking knowing that one does not know. Dis-ease by knowing.

The Dao can't be explained with words.So any words here are meaningless.
Just because I believe it today, doesn't mean I will believe it tomorrow.
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