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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

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  #11  
Old 28-06-2011, 11:57 AM
A Glass named Esther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightowl
Exodus 22:18

KJV 18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

ESV 18 "You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Can someone help me with what the interpretation of this verse means in the Hebrew text? Is there a explanation of what witchcraft, witch, or sorceress, actually encompasses? Is the definition of these word the same as in the Christian Bible? Thank you.

nightowl

Are we looking at something different?

I'm getting the below for Exodus 22:18 (Parshah Mishpatim)

"18. Whoever lies [carnally] with an animal shall surely be put to death."

-esther
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  #12  
Old 28-06-2011, 12:10 PM
Honza Honza is offline
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The NIV has Exodus 22:18 as "Do not allow a sorceress to live"
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The Humility, The Pride and The Humiliation.
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  #13  
Old 28-06-2011, 12:21 PM
A Glass named Esther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattie
There are many ways in the Bible that women were demonized throughout the entire document. It begins w/ this women are evil theme on page 2 of the KJV (doesn’t waste any time at all!!!) w/ women being responsible for the fall of man w/ creating sin by disobeying God’s orders (Eve & the apple).

This demonizing women isn’t subtle at all. Nor is it confined to the Old Testament. Note that it says ‘sorceress’ & ‘witch’ using terms that specify women. WHY??????? It could have said sorceress & sorcerer & witch & warlock. It doesn’t. It’s very specifically ONLY referring to women. Does this only referring to females only mean that just females were capable of these powers? Of course not.

The demonizing of women & cutting them out of the religious power structure nicely took care of disempowering half of the population. Not a bad move for those whose power was invested in keeping the population disempowered. It also created a rift between women & men.



So...in the Torah there is no "Eve" and there is no "apple".

The first woman was named Chavah and considered the Mother of all life. Chavah is a derivative of the Hebrew word chayah, meaning “living one.” The name Chavah also has a connection to the word chavayah, which means experience (ie. the experience of life). Women (or men for that matter) are not inherently evil, although we all have the choice to do good or evil.


As far as witches I have no idea what you are speaking of. The following are the laws that might apply and I don't see how they relate only to women:



Not to perform ov (medium) Lev. 19:31 Not to perform yidoni (magical seer) Lev. 19:31 Not to go into a trance to foresee events, etc. Deut. 18:10 Not to engage in astrology Lev. 19:26 Not to mutter incantations Deut. 18:11 Not to attempt to contact the dead Deut. 18:11 Not to consult the ov Deut. 18:11 Not to consult the yidoni Deut. 18:11 Not to perform acts of magic Deut. 18:10
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  #14  
Old 28-06-2011, 12:22 PM
A Glass named Esther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
The NIV has Exodus 22:18 as "Do not allow a sorceress to live"

This must be something Christian then?

-esther
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  #15  
Old 28-06-2011, 12:42 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Glass named Esther
This must be something Christian then.

-esther

Esther,

The verse in question -
מְכַשֵּׁפָה, לֹא תְחַיֶּה
is numbered in Jewish translations of Torah as verse 17.

B'shalom,

Peter
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  #16  
Old 28-06-2011, 01:19 PM
A Glass named Esther
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbiO
Esther,

The verse in question -
מְכַשֵּׁפָה, לֹא תְחַיֶּה
is numbered in Jewish translations of Torah as verse 17.

B'shalom,

Peter

Thanks Peter, I must have missed it since I've never seen it listed as a specific commandment.

Either way, according to Rashi it applies to both males and females.

Also, only the court would have the authority to implement a death penalty. Even when a death penalty was possible, it was extremely extremely rare.

-esther
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  #17  
Old 28-06-2011, 01:41 PM
A Glass named Esther
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Good thing for this thread, otherwise I could have missed studying this particular line in the Torah had I not seen the question here.

Short commentary from The Stone Edition Chumash:

"By definition, sorcery is an attempt to assume control of nature through powers of impurity and thus deny G-d's mastery."

and also:

"Those who engage in sorcery are extremely dangerous to others, because of the corrosive and enticing nature of such activity."
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  #18  
Old 28-06-2011, 02:28 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Yes. The idea is that if there is an alternate source of "supernatural" inspiration outside of God and one's own connection with the divine, people may be misled by the flashiest oracle rather than being grounded in a true spiritual relationship with God, self, and others.

Although it applies to both men & women, it addresses women (?). Presumably they were the bigger threat (LOL)? Then again we have Deborah and the matriarchs who were known for prophetic sight.

The kohanim have preserved much internal esoteric knowledge of spiritual or energy healing and other aspects of akasha that would be called "divination" or "time travel" today and yet retain a very sacred essence. Their intention or purpose is to elevate and santify the souls of the Jewish people and more broadly to assist in tikkun. And I think this is the kavanah underlying a lot of mystical orientation to prayer.

I think 1) identification of the Source (i.e. it's all from God...I am a channel) and 2) purpose and intent are what separate the sacred from the profane. Is this for God? Is this service to others? Or to self?

Spirituality and elevation requires grounding first. Perhaps it's the distracting and superficial entertainment aspect that was to be discouraged, whereas real healing or prophetic vision would be welcomed in a sacred and purposeful venue, with proper humility. Who makes that determination is another question...I leave that to the experts ;)

l'shalom,
7L
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  #19  
Old 28-06-2011, 02:55 PM
A Glass named Esther
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Yes. The idea is that if there is an alternate source of "supernatural" inspiration outside of God and one's own connection with the divine, people may be misled by the flashiest oracle rather than being grounded in a true spiritual relationship with God, self, and others.

Although it applies to both men & women, it addresses women (?). Presumably they were the bigger threat (LOL)? Then again we have Deborah and the matriarchs who were known for prophetic sight.

The kohanim have preserved much internal esoteric knowledge of spiritual or energy healing and other aspects of akasha that would be called "divination" or "time travel" today and yet retain a very sacred essence. Their intention or purpose is to elevate and santify the souls of the Jewish people and more broadly to assist in tikkun. And I think this is the kavanah underlying a lot of mystical orientation to prayer.

I think 1) identification of the Source (i.e. it's all from God...I am a channel) and 2) purpose and intent are what separate the sacred from the profane. Is this for God? Is this service to others? Or to self? Spirituality and elevation requires grounding first.

Perhaps it's the distracting and superficial entertainment aspect that was what was to be discouraged, whereas real healing or prophetic vision would be welcomed in a sacred and purposeful venue, with proper humility.

l'shalom,
7L

Hi 7L!

Although the Rashi note mentions that women were more commonly sorcerers than men, it seems strange considering Balaam (a male sorcerer) is focused on in the Torah and I can't think of any females that would be big sorcerers like him (his prophetic abilities were at such a high level like Moses).

I did have another thought: there is extensive mention of idolatry in the Parsha. Since idolatry can be compared to adultery, and sorcery seems to be part of that ball of wax, perhaps there is some additional significance to focus on the "female"? Like Hashem's bride lusting after other "gods"? Possibly this is connected.


I agree that we can tap into divine healing energy provided we become a vessel for G-d's goodness rather than for selfish desires to manipulate nature.

-esther
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  #20  
Old 28-06-2011, 03:18 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Glass named Esther
Hi 7L!

Although the Rashi note mentions that women were more commonly sorcerers than men, it seems strange considering Balaam (a male sorcerer) is focused on in the Torah and I can't think of any females that would be big sorcerers like him (his prophetic abilities were at such a high level like Moses).

I did have another thought: there is extensive mention of idolatry in the Parsha. Since idolatry can be compared to adultery, and sorcery seems to be part of that ball of wax, perhaps there is some additional significance to focus on the "female"? Like Hashem's bride lusting after other "gods"? Possibly this is connected.


I agree that we can tap into divine healing energy provided we become a vessel for G-d's goodness rather than for selfish desires to manipulate nature.

-esther

I think there is definitely a tie-in between idolatry-adultery-female, though I didn't want to go there. The nature of men shouldn't be exploited, and I assume that was done by the less than holy seers of the female persuation. If the cult of Diana or whomever promised daily "prophecies" & free sex on the temple grounds after, I imagine this would tend to corrode the integrity of whatever morality and social institutions you may have as a society. LOL.

Speaking generally, I would say this kind of excess is generally less a temptation for women physically, although exploitation or manipulation of any kind, including emotional manipulation, is a problem if or when persons proclaim a "special" relationship with God that appears to have no other purpose than self-promotion and ego gratification. And without moral fibre, women could be led to take part in the same sort of behaviour as a result of various emotional manipulation. The nature of women also needs to be respected.

This sort of association of "free love", no boundaries, and spiritual practices of questionable origin and motivation other than self-promotion is a predictable outcome of excess or unbalanced chesed. What it means is that abundant love without truth, might, and justice becomes tainted, or corrupted. Lax and indulgent. Unable to set boundaries. Unable to orient and clearly focus on truth and light. Luckily we got a lot of Isaac's genes too. We need to give that man a lot more credit :) It's the metal and the mettle in Jacob's heart.

l'shalom,
7L
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