Reconciling non duality with retaining individuality in spirit

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by Dan_SF

I would not use nothingness to describe the unseen. Because it isnt nothing that is doing something. it is notseen (by human eyes) that is existing.
I would rather describe this nothingness as an Idea. So as you can't see the idea, you can know it, and so you can see it is there.

Everything is an idea.

I wouldn't say everything is an idea. I also would not call nothingness an Idea because the idea of nothingness points to that which is not an idea. If awareness or consciousness resonate more with you, I sometimes use those words interchangeably. What is aware of ideas is not, however, an idea.

God Created his Son, in his mind, as an idea of a Son. God Creates the Eternal and Unchangeable.

If it's eternal it doesn't need to be created. God is the eternal.

Now in this Confusion the Body and other things appear to be. Beeing part of Son, they are God like, at least the part which is holding them alive (which is the idea of Son).

But Son is splitting himself into parts and pieces. Now, every part and piece can grow, have its own experience, and the body does appear to have an End.

So while you can think that you are Body,what makes you able to think is still an idea of Son. And as Son is one with God (One means not beeing different) So are his Ideas one with him.

As the Body is the Idea of beeing different, the bodies will never be one. But the Minds can choose not to see them (other minds) as different. Only in this way is onenes meaningful and healing (because the son is made whole).

I agree the bodies will never be one. But the assumption one is the body can be questioned and the belief one was ever limited as such can be let go. Awareness doesn't become one it unbecomes two, but even this unbecoming is imagination going wild.

[firstandlast]

Originally Posted by DreamKey

The body appears to the same consciousness that permeates the creation appearing, and so it would point closer to say consciousness or oneness itself is in a simulation of separation.

As far as the beliefs of loved ones retaining their individuality, that retaining happens in the human experiential framework. The framework is composed of two ideas, time and space. 'You', as consciousness, are not in those ideas.

Could it possibly be, by realizing our oneness inherent to the origin of ourselves being born into it, of it, from it; that by knowing our own unity that the process is not a simulation, but the direct realization of looking in upon ourselves, and realizing we are one.. not in a manner of observing some sort of fact of our own existence; but that by observing us as one we could begin to see every one.. because that one, is not just one.. but one in truth--

What changes the degree of truth.. well we are one? points to some transcendent aspect of existence that is like fish waking up to water.. and than the fish realizing it was water and then the water realizing it was the fish-- If I realized we were all one, than I might of come up with the same kind of agenda often brought into this world (repeatedly in a fervor) where our ideas of love and what matters in realizing our oneness tends to occur--

Or can we look into a deeper degree.. if I say we are one, is that an all pervading truth? if you think in terms of an all pervading force running through us.. sure-- But how can the truth become more true? can it be? well things can appear to us more true than they later appear.. and this is the usual way-- But what if we took a single realization to its extreme, that the one realized is everyone, and that the transcendent one is merely structure of identity for us; though we begin to think we have moved passed that thinking there are formless things, when simply you have yet to recognize its form-- And what is its form? it is one thing, that infinitely as one whole expressed itself into the many wholes that do not feel whole with the hole because nothing is moving in a way where our identity is dependable--

As long as someone thinks there is no identity to be had, that they might not be thinking how we may not be able to understand reality until we understand ourselves.. and that realization would appear to be a realization of the no-self; but whom finds themselves in an order of being where no one is acting in accordance with our whole self; that whole self whom unless reveals itself in a way we recognize.. cannot be recognized as the way it is... and that the way it is, is that as long as our whole self cannot act whole.. that the whole self, of that whole we all are cannot reveal its uninhibited nature to us-- Which I think is an important point, because as people change into higher quality choices of alignment.. that the effects of it upon the spiritual kingdom and the human kingdom.. is to allow us to recognize our greater aspects as we allow those greater aspects to be expressed; so that the one whom thinks it is two, may become two whom think it is one; might find revelation in a 4th emergence where the three that are the one that is the 2, we begin to find that the 2 become the same one it was, in a way that chooses to experience the same thing differently--

I think choice is far important to understanding this, because if someone is trying to find out how we are separated; that they might peek over the wall and know their neighbors.. who are as themselves decided to be so just as each one has-- But that we obscured this by hiding our unified will, in the variety of forms that obscured the common links, which is every link and that is the most common link.. the most repeating pattern is the most influential; or that we might witness not influence; but that the forces governing our existence and diminishing the quality of will is what happens when every aspect of your being hasn't been brought into conscious accord-- And again, the one realized will not be experienced by itself as conscious accord, until the ones that make the one up are relating to each other by the first choice in their heart, which is a heart who's core essence is to move the one that it is, in accordance with the ones it is among, by realizing the one of all.. that is hidden by all of one.. but we count farther than there is.. one.. two.. doh!

If your mind is arranged in a manner where every move is connected to one view which unveils one path, which is not a path; but a will who's choice in line with its intentions in "formless" realms; works with every force behind it, but maybe not every force plays the same role, and moves in ways in which correlation is not causation, but relation of the intentions who appearing as multiple causes, do not appear to correlate in the whole scheme-- leaving people to feel that reality is doing something other than what they desire, by experiencing thoughts of what they desire that follows form to direct the same desire to be a different form at every point in existence.. and that each one of these desires may appear small, vain, and selfish to expect; are like the pixel of a screen.. who as each person see's a simple flashing color and light guiding them; that the collective screen tells us something that we could not see; seeing the same thing as our own life and only our own life--

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by firstandlast

Could it possibly be, by realizing our oneness inherent to the origin of ourselves being born into it, of it, from it; that by knowing our own unity that the process is not a simulation, but the direct realization of looking in upon ourselves, and realizing we are one.. not in a manner of observing some sort of fact of our own existence; but that by observing us as one we could begin to see every one.. because that one, is not just one.. but one in truth--

I was saying realizing you are not a person is not an experience of the person. How do you talk about something that doesn't happen in time and space? It can be tricky. To imagine you had a realization would be part of the illusion (aka imagination).

What changes the degree of truth.. well we are one? points to some transcendent aspect of existence that is like fish waking up to water.. and than the fish realizing it was water and then the water realizing it was the fish-- If I realized we were all one, than I might of come up with the same kind of agenda often brought into this world (repeatedly in a fervor) where our ideas of love and what matters in realizing our oneness tends to occur--

I would say oneness doesn't have an agenda. Realization of oneness doesn't need an agenda to realize what's already here or to spread more oneness. Oneness includes everything, the good, the bad, the ugly. If it's all about good, love, light, etc., then it isn't a oneness realization but an exclusion of parts of the totality the person doesn't like.

Or can we look into a deeper degree.. if I say we are one, is that an all pervading truth? if you think in terms of an all pervading force running through us.. sure-- But how can the truth become more true? can it be? well things can appear to us more true than they later appear.. and this is the usual way-- But what if we took a single realization to its extreme, that the one realized is everyone, and that the transcendent one is merely structure of identity for us; though we begin to think we have moved passed that thinking there are formless things, when simply you have yet to recognize its form-- And what is its form? it is one thing, that infinitely as one whole expressed itself into the many wholes that do not feel whole with the hole because nothing is moving in a way where our identity is dependable--

Formless things?

As long as someone thinks there is no identity to be had, that they might not be thinking how we may not be able to understand reality until we understand ourselves.. and that realization would appear to be a realization of the no-self; but whom finds themselves in an order of being where no one is acting in accordance with our whole self; that whole self whom unless reveals itself in a way we recognize.. cannot be recognized as the way it is... and that the way it is, is that as long as our whole self cannot act whole.. that the whole self, of that whole we all are cannot reveal its uninhibited nature to us-- Which I think is an important point, because as people change into higher quality choices of alignment..

What's the important point? You talk about the realization of the whole and then how it affects separate people making choices. If you are the whole, and you realize that you are at one with everything, the idea of being a separate person making choices isn't true. Otherwise the realization was not a realization but a belief.

I'm not saying there isn't a context where you are a person making choices. I'm saying realizing you are not that person isn't an important point because of how it affects your personal choices.

[Miss Hepburn]

Firstandlast...congratulations on your 500th post.

This is some thread! Wow!
I'm really enjoying it!

[acorn]

DreamKey,you must have known that your post can not be understood by most people...the vast majority.You have stated it correctly...that direct knowledge is liberation...this knowledge is hard won territory to be sure, and not for the faint of heart...this is to be realized in deep rumination and quietude only. further explanation may only be confusing...but i will risk one comparison ..
the nothingness....is the absolute
appearance ..... is creation (conscience-ness) or the relative
__________________________________________________ _____
I loved the term... dynamic nothingness (again, these things are knowable to all who can turn inwardly, NOT externally) forget words and concepts..be still..with an earnest desire to realize and in time all will be revealed...it,s that simple..


From Dynamic Nothingness... comes beingness ( I AM ) this is Existence ,Knowledge ...Bliss....it is the dynamic principle of all possibilities, BEFORE body identification ...it pervades all of creation and yet remains aloof.
this dynamic principle is in the body( you could call it a soul if you wish) and has mistakenly took itself to be the body and not the dynamic principal

As if that wasn't enough.. what we really are is the dynamic nothingness
even creation has to be transcended


See im gonna stop there... I already said too much...I liked your post
I probably should't post this.....but I did...didn't I

Love
acorn

[DreamKey]

Originally Posted by acorn

DreamKey,you must have known that your post can not be understood by most people...the vast majority.You have stated it correctly...that direct knowledge is liberation...this knowledge is hard won territory to be sure, and not for the faint of heart...this is to be realized in deep rumination and quietude only. further explanation may only be confusing...but i will risk one comparison ..
the nothingness....is the absolute
appearance ..... is creation (conscience-ness) or the relative
__________________________________________________ _____
I loved the term... dynamic nothingness (again, these things are knowable to all who can turn inwardly, NOT externally) forget words and concepts..be still..with an earnest desire to realize and in time all will be revealed...it,s that simple..


From Dynamic Nothingness... comes beingness ( I AM ) this is Existence ,Knowledge ...Bliss....it is the dynamic principle of all possibilities, BEFORE body identification ...it pervades all of creation and yet remains aloof.
this dynamic principle is in the body( you could call it a soul if you wish) and has mistakenly took itself to be the body and not the dynamic principal

As if that wasn't enough.. what we really are is the dynamic nothingness
even creation has to be transcended


See im gonna stop there... I already said too much...I liked your post
I probably should't post this.....but I did...didn't I

Love
acorn

Pretty good stuff acorn. I would say all can understand but not that many want to.

[Emmalevine]

Thanks everyone for the very interesting and thoughtful replies. Lots to ponder on.

[kris]

Originally Posted by Emmalevine

If each of us are part of the Whole and we are essentially One then persumably after death we go back to that experience of Oneness. How then can we reconcile this with the belief that our loved ones and other spiritual beings retain their individuality? In fact how do we explain individuality at all since we didn't exist in the same form prior to carnation.

See if this helps - http://kris10846902.tripod.com/

[no1wakesup]

"Individual spirit" has its own duality to deal with (reconcile).

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Emmalevine

This is something that has always confused me. I know I'm trying to understand it logically which may be part of the problem but regardless of that I'm hoping someone with good spiritual awareness may be able to explain it.

I suggest watching the short videos of Natalie Gray at Youtube to get a sense of what we are and how things work.

If each of us are part of the Whole and we are essentially One then persumably after death we go back to that experience of Oneness.

Natalie and many others, like Rupert Spira, might say that, since there is only Oneness or the Absolute, there is no actual "we" and that Oneness only appears to be a (temporary) someone who is born, lives and then dies. Oneness (you) is never born and never dies - it's ETERNAL and INFINITE.

How then can we reconcile this with the belief that our loved ones and other spiritual beings retain their individuality? In fact how do we explain individuality at all since we didn't exist in the same form prior to carnation.

Natalie might say that, since there is only the Absolute or the One (you), appearing as a 'someone' who believes such and such or as an 'individual' who appears in a certain 'form', all of this cosmic appearance is just you, the Absolute, playing the game of life and temporarily forgetting that you are the Absolute in and AS all of it.

I feel really stupid writing this out as people on this forum appear to have such an advanced understanding of such matters, but hey ho I'm putting this out there because I really want to understand the bigger picture.

You, the One, ARE the bigger picture! You've just temporarily forgot who/what you are in and all around this apparently separate 'me'/self that you seem to be. Check out the work of Natalie Gray and Rupert Spira.
good luck