On being agreeable to one another

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes, it is getting late and I shall expound further another time..but for now..

The most difficult thing to be able to do for anybody is to hold two opposing concepts to be true simultaneously.

Einstein noted that it was the "hallmark of genius" whilst the sages claim it to be the "indicator of Enlightenment".

It is also why it is said that the path of truth is as narrow as the edge of a razor because not many are able to walk that path...that perspective from where everyone is right and yet nobody is.

I was also going to speak of another metaphor which relates according to my culture, as the Tower of Babel doesn't really cut it..

It concerns the tale of the six blind men and the Elephant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Anyway, enough for now, but if you make the thread about The Tower, I shall contribute.

after I started reading the wiki about the blind men and elephant I remembered coming across it before.

It is a big problem, and you can never really get past wondering if you haven't been caught by it... because once you assume you know the answer to that question you've fallen for the trap... so it becomes an endlessly open issue as to whether you've committed that mistake... it is extremely hard to deal with open-ended issues I've found, I always want a tidy ending so I can move on

two opposing concepts... I play that game enough to realize there is a third part to that... the middle ground between the two. Haven't really thought too much what to do with that other than to realize it isn't possible to get to that middle ground while at the same time venerating one side or the other...
the path I suppose is to love what you hate and hate what you love long enough to start seeing that the pair of these goes together?

Anyway all this also has something to do with the old adage about wisdom is beginning to know that you don't really know I guess

I'll write something later, I have errands to run sigh.

[FallingLeaves]

I suppose what I didn't say was written a long time ago:

It looks like one cannot lack respect for what others put respect in
Such reckless desertion!
It is not yet centered, this way.

I learn much more from disagreement than agreement.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Much as we like being in agreement with each other, the powers that be seem to think that getting the agreement of each other about what is the 'real' truth is a dangerous thing. First time that was mentioned was at babylon, when 'God' made different 'languages' precisely so there would be no agreement about what should be considered real and what should not. Apparently to prevent us from being agreeable enough to each other to get back together and figure out how to finish building a 'tower' to 'heaven'?

The Tower of Babel story is taken from Sumerian mythology and the underlying tale there is Enlil not liking the idea that the local hominids might one day be as clever as the Annunaki/gods/God themselves, divide and conquer. Much of Old Testament God is the same, it's the conflict between Enlil and Enki. The 'Tower to Heaven' was a metaphor for consciousness itself.

Language isn't the problem, it's how people interpret it that causes all the problems. If I call you a silly bunny for having a rant, do you take offence or not?

While we're here, Graham Hancock tells of the Shining Ones. In Sumerian mythology they are the Elohim and in the Bible they are the angels Michael, Raphael.... In Hinduism they are variations of 'div', which is the root word for Shining One, n South America they are the Viracochas and in Ireland they are the Tautha de Danaan. Some 495 cultures across time and geography share a common Spiritual ancestry so while the languages are different it all comes from the same source. And therein lies the understanding. Also just as interesting is that this was happening long before it was thought that the cultures had any contact with each other.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Of course we would all rally against such an idea if we could accept it... how could something as endearing as having the agreement of others be so bad? but the fact is the events in question are recorded as occurring no matter HOW we want to spin them. People do seem to have an endless desire for vanity and lies though so...

Well, now you're into territory that Spirituality doesn't want to admit to, because the answer to lies in the dark and dismal places angels fear to tread - the human heart and mind. Discussing that is heresy.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

So anyway we don't get to know the 'real' truth but we do all get to fight to maintain our own version of what that 'truth' might look like - you see it in nations around the world each trying to maintain their own way of life at the expense of everyone else, and you see it in individuals trying to propagate the 'correct' way of being or thinking to those around them again at other's expense. It seems carefully balanced though so that no one party can get the upper hand and then keep it indefinitely. Endless Roller Coaster sigh.

The truth is relative to one's own agenda, and the only truth we can tell is the truth of ourselves.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

hehehe... from what I see it isn't from lack of trying... something else is getting in the way lol!

That's the kind of territory that's strictly taboo in a Spiritual forum, but I'm in complete agreement.

There's a Spirituality where one plus one equals three.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

personally, I think you totally misunderstood what I was saying... This was a fun rant to read though lol!

Did I miss your point? I did hit something….but I can’t really tell if it is your point or not, perhaps there is some confusion involved. Anyway, to be honest, I am not sure I was actually aiming at your point, whatever it may be, (not that I would have hit it had I been). Hopefully you will find this a fun rant to read as well.

The point I was aiming at was actually God’s point, which I actually think is a rather good one. We humans tend to cause a good deal of trouble when we disagree with each other, but can cause a good bit more trouble when we agree with each other. It is when all that babeling stops sounding confusing and starts to make sense to each other that we really have something to worry about. Same goes for all that self babeling that goes on inside the mind as well. Making sense is not inherently bad, it is just that we have a tendency to decide what makes sense, or what is true, based on what others agree with, and so truth becomes a matter of consensus. With consensus comes cooperation, and with enough of both, like God said, “there is no limit to what we might accomplish”, and by consensus at that time, judge to be truthfully good. An event recorded repeatedly throughout history. Consensus gives us power, but not necessarily truth, just the illusion of it. We humans are a social species, we have an instinct to find and match the consensus of our tribe. This makes consensus take on a life and movement all of its own, like the result from a Ouija board. As each strives to match what it thinks the others already are, it pushes and tugs on that very consensus it seeks to, and believes it must, become.

Originally Posted by ketzer

We humans tend to cause a good deal of trouble when we disagree with each other, but can cause a good bit more trouble when we agree with each other. It is when all that babeling stops sounding confusing and starts to make sense to each other that we really have something to worry about.

Absolutely! Whenever we have monolithic agreement bad things tend to happen.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

begin rant
------------------------

Much as we like being in agreement with each other, the powers that be seem to think that getting the agreement of each other about what is the 'real' truth is a dangerous thing. First time that was mentioned was at babylon, when 'God' made different 'languages' precisely so there would be no agreement about what should be considered real and what should not. Apparently to prevent us from being agreeable enough to each other to get back together and figure out how to finish building a 'tower' to 'heaven'?

Of course we would all rally against such an idea if we could accept it... how could something as endearing as having the agreement of others be so bad? but the fact is the events in question are recorded as occurring no matter HOW we want to spin them. People do seem to have an endless desire for vanity and lies though so...

So anyway we don't get to know the 'real' truth but we do all get to fight to maintain our own version of what that 'truth' might look like - you see it in nations around the world each trying to maintain their own way of life at the expense of everyone else, and you see it in individuals trying to propagate the 'correct' way of being or thinking to those around them again at other's expense. It seems carefully balanced though so that no one party can get the upper hand and then keep it indefinitely. Endless Roller Coaster sigh.

------------------------------
end rant

In the mundane world this is seemingly an irreconcilable problem. But spiritual practice leads to higher truth which necessarily does reconcile these paradoxes and apparent contradictions by the higher more comprehensive and inclusive perspective. That is the simple direct point - and result- of any legitimate practice.

The only true agreement, true and enduring harmony, true perfection, and true satisfaction is when the entire individuated being is in full identification and confluence with the truth-consciousness, or supramental consciousness of the Divine Will of the Highest/Supreme Being. This is not a contradiction because it is fully available to human beings as it is present in the being, but must be aspired to.

It is the consciousness that knows - because it is - the Will of the Highest for all Bbeing(s) simultaneously, not (apparently) separated, ignorant of, and in conflict with any "other" accordingly, because in that consciousness there is no other...only The One, as experienced instrumentally by, in, and through any 'one' within the multiplicity.

Of course, This is anathema to the objective rational mind and therein is the whole crux of the matter. Spirituality requires the transcending of mind as focus of consciousness.

Suggested reading would be Sri Aurobindo on the supramental consciousness, truth-consciousness, super-mind etc.
If one is averse to gurus, their writings, or both - in principle - then by all means avoid and revel in self-perpetuated mystery and consternation!

~ J

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Absolutely! Whenever we have monolithic agreement bad things tend to happen.

Makes Sense .

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

If one is averse to gurus, their writings, or both in principle - then by al means avoid!

~ J

it isn't a 'principle' for me to be averse to gurus... just a practicality.

Because if any of them had achieved anything 'real' they would have 'fixed' this place instead of going off to have fun while leaving the rest of us all to suffer all the time.

The fact that the place isn't fixed (obviously) means noone got anywhere I would find interesting... and thus while there may be valuable information to be attained from the works of the gurus I can't find it in my heart to take the overall directions such people are going in any more seriously than I take unbridled commercialism as a viable path for me to go down. The answer apparently lies elsewhere.

spin your response to that any way you want but the fact is certain things exist regardless of whether or not anyone is a guru. And none of this pontificating about how nice it is for some people to attain being a guru makes up for the fact that most of us simply don't have what it takes to get there, if for no other reason than that those who are already there have staked a claim to the place and they put up resistance to others joining their club. And OUR lives have to be endlessly painful. So what use is guruhood to us?

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Absolutely! Whenever we have monolithic agreement bad things tend to happen.

just for the record I agree...