St. Augustine - Christianity Before Christ

[Still_Waters]

According to St. Augustine,

"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed, began to be called Christianity."

That Augustinian statement at first surprised me especially since St. Augustine is held so highly in Christian circles (and elsewhere as well). However, upon reflection, it makes complete sense. If, in the history of the world, Jesus had been the sole originator of the truth of God, it would be no truth; for truth cannot be originated; it exists.

Truth is Eternal.

When I was at the Khumba Mela (a Hindu happening which is the largest spiritual event in the world) in Haridwar, India, in 1998, I wandered into a tent where the guru (literally one who removes ignorance) was speaking in English. (I don't understand Hindi so an English speaking guru was quite welcome especially since there was also food and refreshments at that ashram. ) Although he was a Hindu, I quickly realized that he was teaching from Lord Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. When some one in the audience questioned why he was teaching from the Sermon on the Mount, he simply replied that Lord Jesus' teachings are among the best anywhere and he could see no reason why not to quote Him along with others.

Truth is Eternal.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

According to St. Augustine,

"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed, began to be called Christianity."

That Augustinian statement at first surprised me especially since St. Augustine is held so highly in Christian circles (and elsewhere as well). However, upon reflection, it makes complete sense. If, in the history of the world, Jesus had been the sole originator of the truth of God, it would be no truth; for truth cannot be originated; it exists.

Truth is Eternal.

When I was at the Khumba Mela (a Hindu happening which is the largest spiritual event in the world) in Haridwar, India, in 1998, I wandered into a tent where the guru (literally one who removes ignorance) was speaking in English. (I don't understand Hindi so an English speaking guru was quite welcome especially since there was also food and refreshments at that ashram. ) Although he was a Hindu, I quickly realized that he was teaching from Lord Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. When some one in the audience questioned why he was teaching from the Sermon on the Mount, he simply replied that Lord Jesus' teachings are among the best anywhere and he could see no reason why not to quote Him along with others.

Truth is Eternal.

Some of the major tenets of Christian beliefs, One God, the Trinity, the hierarchy of heaven, life after death, the immortality of the Soul, Heaven and Hell, the resurrection of the dead, Reincarnation, the Messiah, and the virgin birth are all Egyptian in origin. The ten Commandments are also taken from Egyptian Kemetic Laws.

Nothing is new except time and over the centuries everything has been altered and adapted to fit.



In his Confessions, St. Augustine ponders the common sense viability of reincarnation: Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? ... And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?

A very wise man.. Truth is eternal.

[Nowayout]

Show me absolutely the one true religion and I will find you another listener.

Show me the absolute truth, I will be silent and have nothing left to say.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

According to St. Augustine,

"That which is called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the beginning of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion, which already existed, began to be called Christianity."

That Augustinian statement at first surprised me especially since St. Augustine is held so highly in Christian circles (and elsewhere as well). However, upon reflection, it makes complete sense. If, in the history of the world, Jesus had been the sole originator of the truth of God, it would be no truth; for truth cannot be originated; it exists.

Truth is Eternal.

When I was at the Khumba Mela (a Hindu happening which is the largest spiritual event in the world) in Haridwar, India, in 1998, I wandered into a tent where the guru (literally one who removes ignorance) was speaking in English. (I don't understand Hindi so an English speaking guru was quite welcome especially since there was also food and refreshments at that ashram. ) Although he was a Hindu, I quickly realized that he was teaching from Lord Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. When some one in the audience questioned why he was teaching from the Sermon on the Mount, he simply replied that Lord Jesus' teachings are among the best anywhere and he could see no reason why not to quote Him along with others.

Truth is Eternal.

Still_Waters,

Thanks for sharing this. It is not so much that Jesus is the orginator of truth as it is that He is the revealer of truth. Truth can be thought of as being synonymous with God..........they both share co-existence, timelessness and eternity. I often think of the scripture.....Rev. 19:10......"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". Christians read that only one way.....past, present and future. A little bit more difficult for Christians is that if they accept genuine prophecy to be inspired by Jesus it means that it can also apply to other traditions(ie. other religious figures, other cultures, etc.) It is, IMO, ridiculous to believe that the one God has only made revelations to a rather small part of the human race.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Nowayout

Show me absolutely the one true religion and I will find you another listener.

Show me the absolute truth, I will be silent and have nothing left to say.

' Show me absolutely the one true religion and I will find you another listener '


I'm all ears


Does God need religion?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

Some of the major tenets of Christian beliefs, One God, the Trinity, the hierarchy of heaven, life after death, the immortality of the Soul, Heaven and Hell, the resurrection of the dead, Reincarnation, the Messiah, and the virgin birth are all Egyptian in origin. The ten Commandments are also taken from Egyptian Kemetic Laws.

Nothing is new except time and over the centuries everything has been altered and adapted to fit.



In his Confessions, St. Augustine ponders the common sense viability of reincarnation: Did my infancy succeed another age of mine that dies before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? ... And what before that life again, O God of my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?

A very wise man.. Truth is eternal.

You are absolutely correct, of course, that some of the major Christian beliefs are indeed Egyptian in origin. The Ten Commandments are clearly taken almost word-for-word from some of the Principles of Ma'at (Egyptian). Those principles are carved in stone on the sarcophagi in Egyptian tombs so there is no question of their authenticity.

Truth is Eternal. Therefore, it is not surprising that relevant truths should appear in the scriptures and in the words of teachers who come after the ancients.

As you also pointed out, "Nothing is new except time and over the centuries everything has been altered and adapted to fit." You put that quite well.

P.S. I had not realized that Augustine had pondered the viability of reincarnation. That was interesting.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Nowayout

Show me absolutely the one true religion and I will find you another listener.

Show me the absolute truth, I will be silent and have nothing left to say.

It is well said that those who are self-realized are especially very very quiet. There is literally "nothing left to say".

In my travels to almost 50 countries, I have met sages from various traditions, including those who taught in complete and utter silence.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Still_Waters,

Thanks for sharing this. It is not so much that Jesus is the orginator of truth as it is that He is the revealer of truth. Truth can be thought of as being synonymous with God..........they both share co-existence, timelessness and eternity. I often think of the scripture.....Rev. 19:10......"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". Christians read that only one way.....past, present and future. A little bit more difficult for Christians is that if they accept genuine prophecy to be inspired by Jesus it means that it can also apply to other traditions(ie. other religious figures, other cultures, etc.) It is, IMO, ridiculous to believe that the one God has only made revelations to a rather small part of the human race.

That is an excellent insight and I thank you for sharing it. I love the way you say that "It is not so much that Jesus is the originator of truth as it is that He is the revealer of Truth". In my definition, Truth is "That Which Is" and, in that context, "Truth can be thought of as being synonymous with God".

Your interpretation of that passage from Revelation (19:10) is also the way that I see it. What applied to Jesus can thus be applied to other traditions (other religious figures, other cultures, etc.) as well.

Your final statement RESONATES completely with me. "It is, IMO, ridiculous to believe that the one God has only made revelations to a rather small part of the human race." The Sun (Light of God) shines equally on all and "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God". Jesus didn't put any limitations or conditions for seeing God other than "pure of heart".

I love your very insightful post !

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You are absolutely correct, of course, that some of the major Christian beliefs are indeed Egyptian in origin. The Ten Commandments are clearly taken almost word-for-word from some of the Principles of Ma'at (Egyptian). Those principles are carved in stone on the sarcophagi in Egyptian tombs so there is no question of their authenticity.

Truth is Eternal. Therefore, it is not surprising that relevant truths should appear in the scriptures and in the words of teachers who come after the ancients.

As you also pointed out, "Nothing is new except time and over the centuries everything has been altered and adapted to fit." You put that quite well.

P.S. I had not realized that Augustine had pondered the viability of reincarnation. That was interesting.

You might enjoy this excerpt from ' City of God '



What pious ears could bear to hear that after a life spent in so many and severe distresses (if, indeed, that should be called a life at all which is rather a death, so utter that the love of this present death makes us fear that death which delivers us from it) that after evils so disastrous, and miseries of all kinds have at length been expiated and finished by the help of true religion and wisdom, and when we have thus attained to the vision of God, and have entered into bliss by the contemplation of spiritual light and participation in His unchangeable immortality, which we burn to attain--that we must at some time lose all this, and that they who do lose it are cast down from that eternity, truth, and felicity to infernal mortality and shameful foolishness, and are involved in accursed woes, in which God is lost, truth held in destation, and happiness sought in inquitous impurities? and that this will happen endlessly again and again, recurring at fixed intervals, and in regularly returning periods? . . . Who, I say, can listen to such things? Who can accept or suffer them to be spoken? Were they true, it were not only more prudent to keep silence regarding them, but even (to express myself as best I can) it were the part of wisdom not to know them.

St. Augustine.

[Nowayout]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

It is well said that those who are self-realized are especially very very quiet. There is literally "nothing left to say".

In my travels to almost 50 countries, I have met sages from various traditions, including those who taught in complete and utter silence.

1+1=2

Nothing else needed to be said.

Numbers can be manipulated but the basic laws remain.

Spirituality and divinity, all ours to learn about.

Lets see, 1+3=13