Where Do We Go at Death if not heaven or hell?

I am with davidmartin
It all works through Love (Gods Love)
That is what makes the Bible come to life. A baseline of Love. The God kind.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

I am with davidmartin
It all works through Love (Gods Love)
That is what makes the Bible come to life. A baseline of Love. The God kind.

amen, i wasn't meaning to criticise anyone it's just sometimes the 'vision' of God's love is quite overwhelming and this goes beyond logic and understanding, and you can just see it in the way Jesus is with people, in the Bible and today. I guess i want to stand up for that and give it its proper emphasis which is guaranteed to be devalued whenever faith vs works appears, which the Bible is chock full of statements validating one or the other positions so forever goes around in a circle. Love seems to be the higher principal above these two

[soulforce]

Originally Posted by VinceField

I don't accept false information. Do you? Probably not. The difference is that I have an objective, absolute and infallible standard for truth, whereas you use mere subjective experience, fallible logic and human emotion.

That's an opinion not a fact, because it presupposes that all scripture is true without evidence. By all means prove it.

Secondly I do use experiences, logic and emotion to ascertain truth because those are all senses that God has given me to experience truth and it has worked for me so far and for the human race. We are still alive.

You can conflate doubt for error but once again the burden of proof rest upon the one who makes the claim. And as of yet you have provided no evidence apart from scripture that your faith base claims are true. Fact.

You are expressing a disconnect with the message of the gospel and scripture as a whole. I'll break it down as simply as possible for you. Through faith in Christ we are saved by the grace of God. Before faith we are unable to do good in the eyes of God. With faith we are given the Holy Spirit, which gives us a new heart and allows us to follow God's will. A person with "living" faith has the Holy Spirit and thus does good works. A person with "dead" faith does not have the Holy Spirit despite his alleged claims of faith, so even if he tries to do good deeds, they are not from God.

According to your scriptures even the demons can recite biblical passages or doctrine but that doesn't tell me what's in your heart. It doesn't tell me what kind of person you are and if you even practice what you preach. To give me the cookie cutter christian manifesto doesn't even tell me the level of understanding of your words. Yes sure I believe that you understand the Christian manifesto, but do you know Jesus? Hmmmm. That's what I like to know.

No, James never said that. You are reading that into the text. James clearly and simply said that his good works are the proof of his faith. Your interpretation does not logically follow from this. Good works don't cease when one has the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not indwell those with works, He indwells those with faith. Thus it is losing your faith that would cause a person to lose the Holy Spirit, not a lack of works.

Actually James did say that furthermore James never once used the word proof (at least in this version), so semantically speaking your wrong.

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and [b]I will show you my faith by my works.

Hence not by grace (sorry Romans 4), but "by my works". I don't think it's very difficult to interpret this line at verbatim. However you're going to tell me that's not how I should interpret this passage, because we need to invoke Romans 4: in order to interpret James 2 accurately.

But I'm pretty sure James didn't have access to the book of Romans with him when he wrote that text. Hence it is logical that you are the one being eisegetical about this scripture not me.

No, your experiences determine what you THINK is truth, which is quite different from what you said. The fact is that your reasoning is fallible and thus cannot logically be the standard for truth. Truth exists apart from what goes on in your head. God is truth and His revelation is truth. Any foundation apart from this is self defeating.

Incorrect, because the only way to experience "the truth", even the bible is to rely on ones experiences. Hence yes of course I rely on my own experiences to ascertain truth. We all do! Including you. I bet I can prove that every single thing you believe to be true is based from an experience. You have no logical argument to make against me here.

Where we differ is the interpretation, perspective and source of our truth. If you said that you don't like my sources, because they're not from your sources. Fine that's okay. I can respect that. I personally don't think the bible is 100% true so that makes us even. There are too many inconsistencies and contradictions as far as: science, history, and even theology is concerned for it to be the only standard for truth. You can still disagree with me there but that's not going to change the fact that the bible is not a perfect book.

[sky]

Originally Posted by open2it

I don't care what a religion believes because religion in my opinion is man's personal interpretation of the unknown according to what he hears or reads.

I don't care if any religion believes reincarnation is just a false teaching. I have known quite a few people that have had experiences in this lifetime that seem to point to their past lives.

As far as the belief we will either go to hell or heaven after we die is in my opinion a crock of false teaching. If one looks at the bible it seems to describe heaven and hell are right here in this life we are living. I don't remember ever hearing the verses talked about in church. Perhaps you have heard the verses discussed or explained in church.

I believe when we die our spirit/soul leaves this body but like Christ said " death where is thy sting". That by my understanding is saying we don't just rot in a casket or are burnt to ashes if we are cremated. Death in this life is not the end of us. If reincarnation is just a false teaching then I wonder why the souls cried out for their body. I am guessing in the hereafter we know we can again live in another body.

Now I am going to blow all I said out of the water. I consider myself a new age believer. I believe New Age is the Old Age and I believe Christ himself would be considered New Age if he walked the earth now. The Church had him crucified for teaching he was one with God and in reality so can we be. The Church and government couldn't have that. Today the Church and the government still don't want the people to know that.

I agree with you that New Age is Old Age and those who criticize it should do a little research. What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again, there is nothing new under the sun.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SimpleMan

For more than 2000 years we kept on deciding what is good and what is bad on our own, look where we are today.When you have the Holy Spirit, then you can talk from what is within you because then you are not alone, the Holy Spirit is within you, it speaks through you.And even then, you speak according to God's word, not from your own mind.

You see violence and I see evil being punished by God because God is not just Love, God is also Righteousness in everything.Once again, I'm calling for rational thinking, one who does not follow the Bible is not a christian, the catholic church is not the true representative of God.The Old Testament law was only the beginning, God knew that man can not keep His perfect law, that's why He sent us Jesus, to fulfil the law, now, if you repent, your sins can be forgiven by God, now He gives His Spirit freely to anyone who wants it.

So you tell me that anyone can be a christian, it does not matter what teachings you follow, you can be a christian... I am talking about the Bible not just any book, it is the word of God, if you call yourself a christian but you don't follow the Bible, then you are not a christian.

I am not here to spread hate or to fight with somebody, I am only stating the truth...

For someone who calls the ' Ego ' evil and the work of satan you certainly use yours constantly.

' the catholic church is not the true representative of God '....... You are judging others again by stating this.... You obviously think that the way of SM is the only way and everyone else is wrong, gosh your 'Ego' is working overtime. Perception is dictated by Ego

[SimpleMan]

Originally Posted by sky123

For someone who calls the ' Ego ' evil and the work of satan you certainly use yours constantly.

' the catholic church is not the true representative of God '....... You are judging others again by stating this.... You obviously think that the way of SM is the only way and everyone else is wrong, gosh your 'Ego' is working overtime. Perception is dictated by Ego

You don't know the Bible, this is the reason you can not understand my words.Please read the Bible and then you will know who is for God and who is against God, I am not judging, I am simply telling you what the Bible says.

There was no ego before the fall of Adam and Eve, the ego is not something created by God, when God created something, He called that something "good", the ego was not part of God's creation.

The new age movement is called this way in our modern culture, of course, the new age has its roots back in the old days, in fact, the new age teachings have been always part of our world.People fail to go the source to see the roots of this new age movement, hinduism.

You live in the world of relative truths and I live in the world where what is true stays true and what is evil stays evil, it does not matter what my mind says.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by sky123

For someone who calls the ' Ego ' evil and the work of satan you certainly use yours constantly.

' the catholic church is not the true representative of God '....... You are judging others again by stating this.... You obviously think that the way of SM is the only way and everyone else is wrong, gosh your 'Ego' is working overtime. Perception is dictated by Ego

Everyone judges. If you use logic and reasoning, you use judgement. If you make decisions, you use judgement. There is nothing wrong with using judgement, in fact, it is wise and beneficial and we are commanded to do so in the Bible. The fact is that the catholic church deviates greatly from the word of God.

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Everyone judges. If you use logic and reasoning, you use judgement. If you make decisions, you use judgement. There is nothing wrong with using judgement, in fact, it is wise and beneficial and we are commanded to do so in the Bible. The fact is that the catholic church deviates greatly from the word of God.

Vince do you think God hears their prayers? how serious is this deviation?

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by VinceField

No, your experiences determine what you THINK is truth, which is quite different from what you said. The fact is that your reasoning is fallible and thus cannot logically be the standard for truth. Truth exists apart from what goes on in your head. God is truth and His revelation is truth. Any foundation apart from this is self defeating.

Very well stated Vince.

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

Vince do you think God hears their prayers? how serious is this deviation?

I know this question was directed to someone else. but by means of Jehovah's HS, I needed to respond also. there are some prayers which aren't heard. for example..."God, let me win the lottery." also if we're NOT following what Jesus taught, for example. Jesus said at (Matt. 10:38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me"). or if we're living in a way that Jesus didn't. such as being friends with the world, and not with God ,(James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God).

meaning following the ways of the world. rather than doing Jesus Father's "WILL" ,(Matt. 7:21 Not every one that said unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that do the will of my Father which is in heaven). NOT being part of this wicked world, as Jesus and his followers wasn't, (John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world). then he won't take our prayers to HIS Father. because we must go through Jesus ...NOT to, there's a difference, (1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus).

when we believe that we can live this way...(Gal. 5:19-21 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures. idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division. envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God). and refuse to change it can hinder our prayers from being heard.

most importantly than these important factors, are refusing to acknowledge the name of the God of Israel, once one have bee shown it, (Exo. 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord I was not known to them). Jesus is called "God" by MANY. yet he taught that the "ONE TRUE GOD", besides himself, we should get to know if we want life ,(John 17:3). those who refuse to pray to this God of Jesus ,(John 20:17). will NOT get their prayers heard by him. but satan can answer making even some "Christians", believe it was "Jesus" who answered! peace