D-wave quantum computers are legit.

[Shivani Devi]

I am also of the realisation that no matter how sophisticated machines become, they always have an 'off switch' and it's up to a human to pull the plug..

Unless we go into 2001 A Space Odyssey and find that we are all 'Dave' in some way or another.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I am also of the realisation that no matter how sophisticated machines become, they always have an 'off switch' and it's up to a human to pull the plug..

until someone gets the machine to show them how to create a machine without an off switch

[Gem]

Originally Posted by organic born

I don't see this as fighting, and in some ways I see this as relevant to the thread. You continually express excitement over the potential ability to use machines to create and manipulate without limits. Should this eventually be the case then what kind of paradigm would our species be moving toward. In this case we have a participant battling dark energies. Within each individual there would be varying priorities that are specific to their orientation. Should we spring on the world the ability to freely manipulate the way matter is expressed one could imagine the mess this would generate.

When individuals are forced to endure the long road toward natural enlightenment then generally along the way there emerges earned "wisdom", due to such extensive exposures. Along with such wisdom comes a broader perspective, and a respectfully cautious hand in relation to application.

Now look around you and tell me, would you be eager to see that any of your neighbors, or relatives, or political operatives, or financial interests acquire such access to freely creating based on their current orientations?

Our friend here is quiet convinced that dark energies are a defining thing, this is just the tip of the iceburg as to how different and varied people tend to view "reality". We are currently limited to our senses and our slow motion experience with time. Should this limitation be removed, without the advantage of earned wisdom, I'm not sure the results would be welcomed!

It's interesting in the sense of how the ontology we use to articulate things changes, and as the knowledge structure changes so does the generalised cultural world view. It's similar to how the current bit system computers could do calculations on a scale that enabled fractal geometry to be demonstrated through a pixelated medium. Prior to that, complex fractals had unimaginable shapes because they were 'self similar' rather than a repetition of pattern. Julia's depictions of the Julia set show how it was imagined to look, and it wasn't until the eighties that very crude pictures were produced ad the nineties until computers could produce the detailed reprensetations available today. Mandelbrot could create the Mandelbrot set because his genius arose at a time when computers made the millions of calculations possible. I think, perhaps simplistically speaking, a quantum computer could generate a complete set by doing all the calculations at once, which is remarkable considering it is an infinite set. Personally, I don't conceive of how that's possible, but if a particle could be 'known' in all possible states simultaneously, that would suggest knowing the particle without collapsing the wave function, but basically, the interpretation which is popular at the moment is the known observation (the measurement) is the collapse of the wave function (though there are variations of that interpretation). Essentially, this implies that what we want to know requires the collapse of wave functions to a single state, and this is where it becomes more interesting, because the outcome of knowledge then depends entirely on the way in which the universe is questioned. This question in turn depends much upon the cultural interests, values, which support the directions of the drive to the 'will to knowledge'.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

it seems like you wouldn't have to worry about that, the fact that the machines themselves will be monetized to death, and the fact that if people at large do get access there will be laws telling you what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do (which will probably be supported by a computer infrastructure that doesn't allow certain things), and police to police them, and all the rest, will form a natural limit to what can be done. In the end, it is just going to be more of the same as before, jsut different paintings to hang on the walls.

The only reason I wouldn't worry is that such computers, with this far of a reach, are not likely to surface for some time yet. What I do find intriguing is this idea that we could rush into such things and everything would go as we'd ideally project.

Let's say for instance that such a thing is now active and viable. There indeed would be laws and a law enforcement stratagem put in place in order to help mitigate the potential damage that is inherent in such things. But seriously, do you really think that something with this level of possibility could be contained? Even in the movies where such kinds of controls are idealized there are still cracks that form within the system that someone comes along and exploits "putting the whole world at risk" (a favorite plot line for hollywood). In the movies the good guy usually wins, but rarely without massive destruction and horrific turmoil along the way. And because of the nature of movies (no one in the audience is actually at risk) everyone remains focused on the "hero" and ignores what's going on in the background (spoiler alert; all of us and our families would be part of the background in such cases)

Now let's leave the movie screen and look around us with clear eyes. Law enforcement is a variable thing. It can be used by a system to catch "criminals" (and this "after" the fact) or it can be used to roundup Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1940's. Much depends on who's pulling the strings and where any give culture is at the time. And then there are those who eagerly study in order to circumvent the legal attempts at "control". You have your garden variety Psychopaths (read; Snakes in Suits by Robert D. Hare) and then, in some cases even worse, those who intend to do 'good' things based on one ideology or another (can you imagine the mess should the American bible belt gain access to the ability of actuating the bibles old testament god? )

And laws, and law enforcement are unable to stop the act of murder, drug production and sales, in fact go down the list of everything that law is supposed to be applied to and still pretty much anything-goes at one time or another. So if you're counting on a legal system to suppress unconscionable activities even "they" will tell you that this is simply impossible.

And then you have governmental black ops who will apply things based on self-serving paradigms (we just fought a couple of wars over oil that then favors the oil companies, do you 'really' think that they have your best interests in mind?). You also have governments in competition with each other where egos in high places are prone to rage against the others who would challenge them is some way. You have black market interests that have nothing but their own agendas in mind and with global interests and networks that can maneuver quite freely beneath the radar.

And this is only what comes readily to mind as I'm generating this response.

I'm sure that you're somewhat aware already of much of what I've just posted, and wrote what you did in the hopes of taking the high ground on an online discussion. But stand back just a little and you'll realize consciously that the ability to freely manipulate matter by the people now alive and in a position to use if for their own purposes, well... one can only imagine.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Gem

It's interesting in the sense of how the ontology we use to articulate things changes, and as the knowledge structure changes so does the generalised cultural world view. It's similar to how the current bit system computers could do calculations on a scale that enabled fractal geometry to be demonstrated through a pixelated medium. Prior to that, complex fractals had unimaginable shapes because they were 'self similar' rather than a repetition of pattern. Julia's depictions of the Julia set show how it was imagined to look, and it wasn't until the eighties that very crude pictures were produced ad the nineties until computers could produce the detailed reprensetations available today. Mandelbrot could create the Mandelbrot set because his genius arose at a time when computers made the millions of calculations possible. I think, perhaps simplistically speaking, a quantum computer could generate a complete set by doing all the calculations at once, which is remarkable considering it is an infinite set. Personally, I don't conceive of how that's possible, but if a particle could be 'known' in all possible states simultaneously, that would suggest knowing the particle without collapsing the wave function, but basically, the interpretation which is popular at the moment is the known observation (the measurement) is the collapse of the wave function (though there are variations of that interpretation). Essentially, this implies that what we want to know requires the collapse of wave functions to a single state, and this is where it becomes more interesting, because the outcome of knowledge then depends entirely on the way in which the universe is questioned. This question in turn depends much upon the cultural interests, values, which support the directions of the drive to the 'will to knowledge'.

I don't have anything pertinent to add to your observations but I did want to express my admiration for your obvious intelligence and your clear and clean manor of expression! I always enjoy reading your replies! :)

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I am also of the realisation that no matter how sophisticated machines become, they always have an 'off switch' and it's up to a human to pull the plug..

Unless we go into 2001 A Space Odyssey and find that we are all 'Dave' in some way or another.

your underestimating these machines...
check it, these computers work by cooling down particles to near absolute 0, when they get cold enough, the particles stop acting like particles, they cool a super conductor material 100 times colder then space, at this tempature the particles become in a state called super positioning, this means that the crazy and impossible physics that take place on the quantum scale now apply to the entire super positioned material, meaning, all the particles are locked together and act as one along with inheriting the properties of particles on a quantum scale, meaning, the particles are connected to all the other particles in alternate realities that have split off from the current reality....
this means the machine is conencted to all other versions of itself in other realities and time lines....thus...there actually is no off switch....sure, you can unplug this machine, cut its power source, but it will still be connected to its counter parts as long as the super conducting material stays cold. once the material heats up, it goes back to its normal state. but even with it in its normal state, you still have the other versions of itself that are still on in alternate realities.

[dutchiexx]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

your underestimating these machines...
check it, these computers work by cooling down particles to near absolute 0, when they get cold enough, the particles stop acting like particles, they cool a super conductor material 100 times colder then space, at this tempature the particles become in a state called super positioning, this means that the crazy and impossible physics that take place on the quantum scale now apply to the entire super positioned material, meaning, all the particles are locked together and act as one along with inheriting the properties of particles on a quantum scale, meaning, the particles are connected to all the other particles in alternate realities that have split off from the current reality....
this means the machine is conencted to all other versions of itself in other realities and time lines....thus...there actually is no off switch....sure, you can unplug this machine, cut its power source, but it will still be connected to its counter parts as long as the super conducting material stays cold. once the material heats up, it goes back to its normal state. but even with it in its normal state, you still have the other versions of itself that are still on in alternate realities.

by the way:these machines could be the begining of terminator o.0
they are fully capable of simulating human consciousness

[SecretDreams333]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

by the way:these machines could be the begining of terminator o.0
they are fully capable of simulating human consciousness

uh right, make that the by science approved part of human consciousnesses which is far removed from what it really is
will the machine be in love and light ? in love with what ? can it be in his creators image ? but than a human not knowing source makes it ?

lol

please dont make the machine if it meets me it will feeeeeel so bad about its limitation it will kill it self , I mean switch off


lol

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by organic born

I'm sure that you're somewhat aware already of much of what I've just posted, and wrote what you did in the hopes of taking the high ground on an online discussion. But stand back just a little and you'll realize consciously that the ability to freely manipulate matter by the people now alive and in a position to use if for their own purposes, well... one can only imagine.

your synopsis of all the things that would happen is pretty smart, I like you. This time you give me just a little too much credit though, I hadn't quite gotten around to thinking of all the things that would happen as a result of going down that road. Although it is the kind of thing I usually get into

on a similar note the 'spirits' once asked me if I wouldn't like to think I have a better way, and be in charge and all that and I said 'no' because really if I were in charge everything would be exactly as bad as it is, it would jsut be different people who profit from the mess we are in. So what is the point in a regime change?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by dutchiexx

by the way:these machines could be the begining of terminator o.0
they are fully capable of simulating human consciousness

Not yet, they aren't.

Even in the most sophisticated AI, it can only learn what others have taught it and not learn or experience anything by itself and reach an independent conclusion.

Even in the most complicated machine, there will be a rose that's defined by form, texture and mathematics and never by beauty or smell.

There will never be self-awareness, where we will get scenes reminiscent of The Lawnmower Man with a machine going "I am God" and actually understanding the full implications of those words beyond having a 'machine ego'.

Nope, in now way have we simulated consciousness, if you don't count the whole physical world as being the prime example of it. lol