'And LEAD us NOT into temptation'

[Molearner]

[quote=PeteC-UK]Hi Folks..

Molearner; We do indeed seem to see the same htings here - even though we approach of course from vastly differing angles - still,we both glimspe the same aspects f truth it seems..Thats reassuring,as it affirms and validates the thng we see - I see it my way,and you yours,but the essential truth is the same..

PeteC-UK,

Yes....it is reassuring and it demonstrates that the essential truth can be discovered from different approaches. Sort of....'all roads lead to Rome'......if pursued to their ultimate end. (this is a metaphorical liberty I am taking....so I hope people don't respond by telling me about all the 'wrong' roads).

And even though I did not quote the remainder of your posting.....I would agree......Yes, that is the point of it. Thanks for your response.

[innerlight]

Faith, like prayer is personal. What one sees and believes is going to be totally different for another. All prayers that are from others, should be used as guidelines at most, but you should find your own prayer. Build your own connection and strengthen your faith that way.

Originally Posted by Molearner

Morpheus,

I assume you are asking me? If so, it is basically this: Remember it is Jesus that is making this prayer. He knew that each of his temptations were genuine. He also knew that God could have easily done each thing that Satan suggested. Here is the main thing: We must remember that earlier in the Lord's prayer, Jesus said "thy will be done". If we ask God to change stones into bread, for example, we are then asking that OUR will be done. No part of the prayer can contradict any part of the prayer. We are to trust God completely. Also, I would refer anyone to Romans 8:26 which in part says......"for we do not know how to pray as we ought". This is fundamentally saying that we are too ignorant to pray correctly. Ignorance is always evidence of the presence of ego. It is very likely that our prayers can be a product of our ego which is automatic separation from God. I invite your comments.

Ahhh! I never thought prayers could be based on ego before and therefore result in a separation from God.

It makes sense, tho now that you pointed it out.

But, is it ego driven to pray for the people in your life? Is it the same during a repentance prayer, whereby you are fully humbled?

I'm not talking about ego driven prayers like you might see on TV. Take Charlie on Two And A Half Men. He rarely prays to God on the show, but when he does, it is very clearly ego driven.

I doubt most of us here pray like Charlie does and the prayers we do pray do come passionately from the heart.

So, would these passionately prayed prayers still technically fall into the category of ego based ones?

Ive heard people say to be constantly in prayer. While I'm not constantly in prayer, I do silently pray several times a day and right before bed.

I know God says not to babble prayers, so I try not to do that. I keep them to the point.

Anyway...I can see the point you are making. But on the other hand, especially for prayers for other people or even strangers we meet on the road...I have a hard time thinking these types are ego based. If I am lifting someone or a group of people up in prayer, it truly does come from my heart.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by yumi14

But, is it ego driven to pray for the people in your life? Is it the same during a repentance prayer, whereby you are fully humbled?

So, would these passionately prayed prayers still technically fall into the category of ego based ones?


Anyway...I can see the point you are making. But on the other hand, especially for prayers for other people or even strangers we meet on the road...I have a hard time thinking these types are ego based. If I am lifting someone or a group of people up in prayer, it truly does come from my heart.

yumi14,

Once again, all very good questions, yumi. One can never say that all prayers are ego based. That would be a denial of the efficacy and the power of prayer. Ideal prayer is communion with God. This represents a humbling of one's self by demonstrating that we recognize a power that is greater than ourselves. One of my favorite examples of prayer is found in Job 42:7-10. Read that carefully. Job stepped out of his ego and prayed so that his 'friends' would not suffer the wrath of God(which they deserved). He did not pray for himself....he did not pray that his tormentors would be punished. It was a prayer for forgiveness with no indication of receiving anything for himself personally. Look at the results: His tormentors escaped the wrath of God......AND.......Job's personal fortune was more than restored. By the act of praying for others(stepping out of his own ego) his prayer was not only answered(the prayer for his tormentors) but as a corollary Job was greatly rewarded by God. It points out that when we allow ourselves to be prayed for(by admitting our need, by admitting our transgressions) we help not only ourselves but we also help others(by encouraging them to step out of their self-interests or ego).

Genuine forms of prayers are often accompanied by tears. Tears are generated in 2 ways: Tears either come from deprivation(what we have lost, what we have deprived from, etc.) or tears come from an over abundance of grace(gratitude, admiration, joy, thankfulness, etc.). Whether tears arise from deprivation or over-abundance, they both represent humility. We are humbled in deprivation because we recognize our weakness. We are humbled by grace because we cannot imagine that God can be so generous, merciful and loving to us. Tears because they consist of water have the property of being able to reflect. i.e. they can reflect the Divine. Tears, IMO, are prayers in themselves. Without uttering a word they speak for our very hearts....a very expression of that which we cannot adequately express with our words or our intellect.

Needless to say.....it is not always an either/or situation that generates tears and true prayer. It is often a combination of both(deprivation and grace). Think of the death of a loved one: We feel deprived by their death...we feel that they are deprived of further life......but: we are also thankful for what they have brought into our lives...we are thankful that we are convinced they will enter heaven. Even if our prayers are childish and ego-based, God must surely recognize that we had the humility to come to Him in prayer. From that standpoint it can be viewed as a starting point. God can work with that.....He can lead us to maturity and we can grow into a fuller realization of God as we work to acquire a genuine spirituality.

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Molearner; Again,deep wisdom in your post...Truly I appreciate your perspective here..Im sure yeshua knew deeply,all these troubles,pit falls,obstacles,self imposed barriers even that we must overcome - Im sure he fully understood our predicamant,and so,He stripped it all away,and effectively started form scratch...

The thing with prayer I find,is that it can and does indeed,become like a constant thing - I lately have called it Presence,as some seem to baulk at the idea of the ACTUAL Holy Ghost as if its not real - and this I guess is my point - a lot of people see their spirituality as somehow "seperate" I think,from normal every day mode - which of course,it cannot ever be so..

Prayer is a good example of what I mean - for some here have said even their prayer is like a "ritual",a task - bit like putting the cat out at bedtime,check the lights off,that kind of thng - get undressed,kneel,pray,bed,up,breakfast,work - just another chore in an endless list of such activities,withut anythng to mark it special,without anyting to mark it SACRED - and really,it does NEED to be aproached,as if it IS sacred,for surely it IS..

At least at first,it must be approached wholly in this devoted way - as He said - go alone shut the door - no intrusions,forget all else and take your Self fully,into this Communion,allow it to fill you He said..We can recite the Lords Prayer above,as often as we like - but it will be to no avail,unless we fully realise what we are attemting - and so a first,perhaps,a specific time and place,may be necassary - a certain time set aside for Prayer,contemplation,Communion - vital and necaasary at first..Approached not as a task,but as a joy,a release,an earned reward,for surely just t free Self from the world if but an instant,brings the greatest peace a mortal can know....If we can find and enter that peace as we pray and communion,then truly,our prayers are received,acknowldged,duly answered...

Indeed,such tears and emotions are often the prelude to this mortal peace....After the torrent of grief,comes the peace of acceptance - and after the tears of joy as the emotion poured its torrent,now comes the eternal stability,the peace of pure knowing..

Thinking about prayer now,I find it does indeed become almost constant,like our very nature,and even unnoticed the communion is still there..I have to consciusly remind my Self if Im out in public - dont address the sky with words - dont speak to the birds and animals as you pass by,the PEOPLE will think me wierd - but to my perspective,such a unity of Soul is obvious and apparant,my Father is both the universe entire Creation,and I address Him directly there at that level of Self at times,lift head to the sky and speak...And also my Father is Present withn each living Soul,and so I often likewise address Him personally,as I encounter Him face to face....

Sadly,He is most often Present and easy to recognise un the Sentient animals,and much harder to find and recognise in the mortal man - to our great shame and great loss,most of us have no idea of the Communion we are always a part of...

[Molearner]

[quote=PeteC-UK]Hi Folks..

Molearner; Again,deep wisdom in your post...Truly I appreciate your perspective here..Im sure yeshua knew deeply,all these troubles,pit falls,obstacles,self imposed barriers even that we must overcome - Im sure he fully understood our predicamant,and so,He stripped it all away,and effectively started form scratch...

PeteC-UK,

It occurred to me that many of us are unconsciously emulating Christ. Jesus took 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish and fed 5,000 people. Each of us take the limited resources we have(our knowledge, our intellect, our experiences, our brushes with the Divine) and attempt to use these resources to share with others that we might enlighten(feed) them. Our sources might be independent of each other......as people can easily notice and that, we, ourselves point out and stipulate-----but they share a common goal: To discover and reveal the truth. It is the beauty of these forums: to extract truth from disparate(or seemingly) sources. It is very tempting to automatically repudiate others when we perceive that they are working from a different source than we are. In reality, we must be open to truth no matter its source. In my own case, I work most closely from scripture because that is what I am familiar with. Nevertheless, I could never deny that great wisdom is contained in other traditions(Hinduism, Buddhism, theosophy, mysticism, etc.). I have some familiarity with these disciplines but I lack the depth of knowledge that I have with scripture. It is important that each of us bring to the table the things that we can share.

Molearner, I really love how you talked about tears.

Pete, I hear you on the sentient animals vs. Mortal men.

Innerlight, I also agree that prayer is a personal thing. :)

[JibJab]

Originally Posted by yumi14

Mickiel came into my mind last night as I was praying the Lord's prayer. I know he interprets the bible differently , so when I got to this part of the prayer I stopped suddenly and found myself pondering on it before continuing. I pray this prayer several times a day and never have I stopped to ponder on one of the sentences like this before.

When I got to this part of the prayer, it hit me.... that it is possible that God does LEAD us into temptation.

The question is why?

I always thought it was Satan who lead us into temptation. I know he does.

But this part of the prayer clearly is talking about God and us asking him to not lead us into temptation.

So, what is your take on this?

Does this suggest that God is also responsible for testing us and leading us into temptation or are we simply asking him to lead us away from temptation when Satan himself is leading us towards it?

The word temptation is often used generally for any kind of trial. In this sense God is said to have tempted Abraham, (Genesis 22:1,) when he tried his faith. We are tempted both by adversity and by prosperity: because each of them is an occasion of bringing to light feelings which were formerly concealed. But here it denotes inward temptation, which may be fitly called the scourge of the devil, for exciting our lust. It would be foolish to ask, that God would keep us free from every thing which makes trial of our faith. All wicked emotions, which excite us to sin, are included under the name of temptation. Though it is not impossible that we may feel such pricks in our minds, (for, during the whole course of our life, we have a constant warfare with the flesh,) yet we ask that the Lord would not cause us to be thrown down, or suffer us to be overwhelmed, by temptations.

"The sentence ought to be resolved thus, That we may not be led into temptation, deliver us from evil The meaning is: “We are conscious Of our own weakness, and desire to enjoy the protection of God, that we may remain impregnable against all the assaults of Satan.” We showed from the former petition, that no man can be reckoned a Christian, who does not acknowledge himself to be a sinner; and in the same manner, we conclude from this petition, that we have no strength for living a holy life, except so far as we obtain it from God. Whoever implores the assistance of God to overcome temptations, acknowledges that, unless God deliver him, he will be constantly falling." - John Calvin

[JibJab]

Forgot to mention, hoping that most realize when a person prays the Lord's prayer they are praying for the Kingdom of God to come and conquer the corruption of the nature, that all our affections are so many soldiers of Satan, who oppose the justice of God, and consequently obstruct or disturb his reign. . . Where else in the Bible is the theme of the Lord's prayer reiterated? Take Psalm 139 when David penned:

If only you, God, would slay the wicked!
Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!
20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, Lord,
and abhor those who are in rebellion against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.