Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29-04-2018, 01:29 AM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
A Little About Science and Spirituality

There is no God per se. What exists is a benevolent creative force composed of an assemblage of great spiritual beings. These are in no way human. They are far above such beginning stages of existence. What do they do? They express livingness. What we know as "creation" is one result of their activity. It was they who, using their great collective minds, caused what we have come to know as the Big Bang. They are so very high that it is quite impossible for we humans to know of them in any literal sense. But.... they are not far away. Their bodily form permeates virtually everything that there is. Can we move towards a satisfactory description of them? Yes. Everything in existence no matter the plane results from and is imbued with this, their signature. This is known by us as "consciousness". It is not a result of anything but a principle unto itself. We are conscious. Our entire planet and even a subatomic particle is conscious. All life is aware in this sense but to varying degrees. Our universe did not come from nothingness. Such a thing is both illogical and impossible. High spiritual planes do exist and it is from these that "matter" is changed down (think electrical transformer) into lower plane matter. What we know as ordinary psychic sensitivity is, at present, the best indicator of the veracity of the claims put forth in this statement. Through the agency of mind (creative force) spiritual matter slows and becomes physical matter. It is these high planes which gave birth, then, to our physical universe(s). And it is the continuing efforts of the great creative force that is responsible for the evolutionary forces that are so very apparent.

Is God a human or some super human being? No. Is Jesus the Son of God in a literal sense? No. Any scientist will say that there is a reason, a source for every observable thing. One cannot both believe this and yet try to claim that our universe spontaneously appeared without reason and from nothing. "Nothing" is an interesting idea but is one which is quite impossible. This sort of magic is not possible. It only seems so because science has not yet been able to properly quantify the existence of all of the spiritual planes of existence. They will some day. Until science succeeds in this spirituality will remain the domain of religion and mystics. Our friends who we see zipping around in faster than light ships know all this well enough. They can travel much, much faster than light, not because of worm holes, but because they have developed the ability to "change up" to a slightly higher (from physical to low spiritual) plane wherein Newtonian physics do not apply.

See? It is all so simple and elegant. At present we have religion and science opposed to each other. Science takes us back in time to the point of creation. Religion takes us further back and tentatively identifies the source. The trouble is that the religious folks default position is one which is nonsensical. In the future science will join with religion and both a new science and a greatly improved religion will be born. This will never be so long as humanity tends to use new technology in military (selfish) application. While we continue to do this we are not ready. The doors to further understanding will remain closed.

Note: Despite my opening statement there are singular entities who are far above we humans in evolution. Many of these assume bodies of expression which are to us, planets. This means that a planet which is one of "sacred" nature necessarily is the more or less corporeal construct of a being who, to those within it's domain, would be a "god". So.... are there gods? Yes and no all at the same time. Our sun is one such sacred globe. Another in our system is Saturn. Each has a central spiritual, creative center which both sends forth and draws back to it's mass those spiritual manifestations which appear to us in our system. The sun creates. The sun recycles. That is it's function both esoterically and exoterically. Hint: Our traditions of The Son of God are probably based on early innate knowledge of the Sun of God. Think now in terms of the Sun gods of the ancients and discover that they might have known more than we give them credit for.

And here we sit wondering where it all will end.....

Last edited by bartholomew : 29-04-2018 at 03:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29-04-2018, 06:16 PM
rijhumal rijhumal is offline
Knower
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 102
 
Thanks bartholomew for you views and observation for corelation between science and spirituality.at this point we have no ideas to interprete and further taking part in this discussion
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29-04-2018, 06:34 PM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rijhumal
Thanks bartholomew for you views and observation for corelation between science and spirituality.at this point we have no ideas to interprete and further taking part in this discussion


It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30-04-2018, 10:08 AM
muffin muffin is offline
Deactivated Account
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,813
  muffin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.

Good afternoon bartholomew

Don't sell yourself short
__________________
Have fun and enjoy
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-05-2018, 05:38 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,741
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
It is poorly written and wide of the mark. I was unable to convey in words what I sensed in ideas. It is always this way I think. Language is too limiting.

No, bartholomew, it isn't wide of the mark. It makes a change to read something from someone who has obviously sat himself down to think about things instead of accepting a mass of inane concepts written down somewhere in the middle of a desert.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-05-2018, 05:57 AM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
No, bartholomew, it isn't wide of the mark. It makes a change to read something from someone who has obviously sat himself down to think about things instead of accepting a mass of inane concepts written down somewhere in the middle of a desert.


Much of what I post is channeled material coming from Bartholomew. This thread is one such. I wish I knew even a small part of what he has learned.

A pleasure to meet someone who is older than I. ha ha.... 'Bout time.

James/Bartholomew
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-05-2018, 03:26 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,087
  7luminaries's Avatar
Bartholomew (Bart for short )...hello there!
I agree with the core truth of what you've shared, that those we know as transcendentals are essentially responsible for stewarding and shepherding all of physical existence, and ultimately assisting and overseeing our our spiritual journeys, as well. I also agree they are not far, never far, and always close at hand. I would also state that consciousness, like politics, is ultimately always local (meaning, direct communion, illuminated exchange, and thus yes even what we apprehend as mental and emotional "communication", is possible).

I also agree the concept of something from nothing is not always helpful, as in some sense what is, is, and has always simply been.

I think the idea of a starting point (say for this oarticular iteration of the physical universe) can be helpful for folks to get started in exploring what is and who they are, at centre. However, grasping that any particular physical expression of any kind (including the cosmos) has a finite start and end, whilst consciousness itself has none, is challenging for many.

This is basically where science stops at present (though quantum physics is challenging the existing perceptions of what is), since where to go to measure and quantify prior to the Big Bang? That's where many are, conceptually, as well, when perception is more limited or based on the physical world and classical physics and similar. Quantum physics theoretically allows for matter to arise or to randomly come into our physical existence (from ??? is not definitively known), but again, that ultimately may be limiting if folks seek to apply a direct correlation to "original" or Source consciousness. (BTW, I truly love exploring and discussing what I apprehend of science and particularly quantum physics and its contribution to our worldview, and I'm sure many fascinating discoveries still await.)

However, not even those transcendentals could (or would) explain the most fundamental questions, such as, why do you or I exist (as individuated consciousness, or being)? And why do you exist as you are, and not as a wholly or fundamentally different individuated expression of consciousness? Or, why is it your being (as consciousness) came into existence &/or exists "near to" or alongside those others most closely proximate to you (or, most closely "related")?

They too have no "answer" for these aside from the truth, that they do not know other than it is what is, and only Source knows "why" you are as you are and why you came into being as you are. Our consciousness was not created by those who brought the physical universe into being. They too experience their own consciousness as a gift, no matter how advanced and/or eternal their state of being seems by comparison to our own.

As opposed to what is the meaning of life, say, for which either you or they could all offer and discuss many good and reasonable suggestions or proposals. These are -- or rather WE are -- what I call a few of the prime mysteries...prime, indivisible, and therefore unique, irreplaceable.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-05-2018, 11:49 PM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Bartholomew (Bart for short )...hello there!
I agree with the core truth of what you've shared, that those we know as transcendentals are essentially responsible for stewarding and shepherding all of physical existence, and ultimately assisting and overseeing our our spiritual journeys, as well. I also agree they are not far, never far, and always close at hand. I would also state that consciousness, like politics, is ultimately always local (meaning, direct communion, illuminated exchange, and thus yes even what we apprehend as mental and emotional "communication", is possible).

I also agree the concept of something from nothing is not always helpful, as in some sense what is, is, and has always simply been.

I think the idea of a starting point (say for this oarticular iteration of the physical universe) can be helpful for folks to get started in exploring what is and who they are, at centre. However, grasping that any particular physical expression of any kind (including the cosmos) has a finite start and end, whilst consciousness itself has none, is challenging for many.

This is basically where science stops at present (though quantum physics is challenging the existing perceptions of what is), since where to go to measure and quantify prior to the Big Bang? That's where many are, conceptually, as well, when perception is more limited or based on the physical world and classical physics and similar. Quantum physics theoretically allows for matter to arise or to randomly come into our physical existence (from ??? is not definitively known), but again, that ultimately may be limiting if folks seek to apply a direct correlation to "original" or Source consciousness. (BTW, I truly love exploring and discussing what I apprehend of science and particularly quantum physics and its contribution to our worldview, and I'm sure many fascinating discoveries still await.)

However, not even those transcendentals could (or would) explain the most fundamental questions, such as, why do you or I exist (as individuated consciousness, or being)? And why do you exist as you are, and not as a wholly or fundamentally different individuated expression of consciousness? Or, why is it your being (as consciousness) came into existence &/or exists "near to" or alongside those others most closely proximate to you (or, most closely "related")?

They too have no "answer" for these aside from the truth, that they do not know other than it is what is, and only Source knows "why" you are as you are and why you came into being as you are. Our consciousness was not created by those who brought the physical universe into being. They too experience their own consciousness as a gift, no matter how advanced and/or eternal their state of being seems by comparison to our own.

As opposed to what is the meaning of life, say, for which either you or they could all offer and discuss many good and reasonable suggestions or proposals. These are -- or rather WE are -- what I call a few of the prime mysteries...prime, indivisible, and therefore unique, irreplaceable.

Peace & blessings
7L


Thanks for the thoughtful response. My view is that consciousness is not a quality or an attribute appearing only when other conditions are right but instead that it is an elemental principal. Thought of in this way one would have to conclude that if all else had gone, if all of creation, physical and spiritual... all of it, were to be taken away with only the elemental source remaining without any sort of corporeal body either physical or spiritual to express through consciousness would still be in existence. This makes it a "principal" rather than an effect.

As consciousness, that which the creative force is, expands the stage is set for all sorts of efforts. Consciousness comes first. Without it there can be nothing else. But this is not a field which supports. Rather it is the principle that preexists. Consciousness requires no physical or spiritual matter to be apparent. In the end, when all else is gone, consciousness will remain. This statement embodies the highest of all the esoteric truths.

Only from the awareness practiced by humanity is consciousness regarded as being something which is either present or not present. From a much higher perspective a clearer field of understanding is afforded.

Yes it's true that through our brains we are self conscious. But.... human souls are self conscious on their own plane first. The physical brain only allow them to come here retaining that aspect. (Souls are much more conscious on their own plane than most of here are). We so often speak of consciousness in terms of our selves. We are conscious when we are awake. We are unconscious if we get hit on the head hard enough. This is not quite right. The consciousness remains but it may or may not be connected to our bodies all the time. The role of the brain is to connect consciousness to the personality. It remains vital regardless of the condition of the body. This is the reason we hear accounts of out of body events etc etc... Note that here we are speaking of human consciousness only. Consciousness of a lesser quality (type) is always apparent in every bit of matter be it physical or spiritual. Since human souls are conscious to a higher degree we tend to equate consciousness with our selves, our own experiences, as baselines. To do this is misleads.

As to the question of "why"? This unknowable source expresses livingness through expansion. This is the reason for creation. This is what the creator does. This is the means of fulling it's reason, goal, purpose of being. It has created all of the spiritual planes and all of the physical universes too. In order to answer the question of why or what is the goal we need simply understand that in order to expand it must be "added to". Creation begins this process. Through created spiritual universes we find corresponding physical universes. Through these we see that elemental physical particles are guided to grow and change though evolutionary processes until they, through higher forms, achieve enlightenment. At a certain point, when they can be supported through adequate environments, souls are created. These begin as simple mid plane spiritual constructs and grow to become "human" souls. On their own planes souls, too, evolve. Becoming human is only one part of the process. These are required to learn and achieve wisdom before they can continue on to other, higher realms, on their journeys back to the source. After souls are sufficiently enlightened they leave the human phase behind and move towards new adventures and challenges. Always upward and onward. Rejoining the source is yet very distant. The return path is always before them.

In the spiritual worlds souls of all types are segregated by their vibrational qualities. Human souls, for instance, cannot have long term association with others which are too dissimilar. If this is the case how is wisdom achieved? This is the key reason for a soul taking on a physical body/personality. Only in the lower planes can souls be exposed to those forces which will allow the accumulation of wisdom. Only through adversity can this be achieved. This is the reason physical planets are the way they are. This is one reason for the great racial and cultural diversity that we see all around us. We are supposed to be learning from being exposed to it all.

It is not knowledge but the wisdom which derives from the practice of that knowledge which frees souls to be elevated to higher realms. This is the way they progress on their return voyage (to the source, finally, in perfection).

The common Christian tradition of souls being created in perfection after which they fall is in error. Souls are born to the mid spiritual planes in perfect innocence. In this state they are incapable of achieving the required wisdom. From here then they come to Earth to begin the long process of learning. Typically a soul will use thousands of bodies (thousands of lifetimes) in this effort.

Human souls were not created at once only. There were none for a very long time after the beginnings of our physical universe. They had to wait until conditions were right. The process of creation continues all the time. As souls achieve and leave the Earth others take their places. At any give time most souls on Earth are very junior and there is no necessary direct correlation between the point of growth and the position in society that a soul enjoys. Most of those in leadership positions are not advanced souls. But the Earth is just the way it needs to be. In the social climate which we observe every day are to be found the tools for rapid spiritual growth. Each year more souls come here to begin. Each year senior souls leave. But some of these elect to stay with the Earth to serve and guide spiritual evolution on a local (planetary) level. Jesus was one such. He remains yet working incessantly.

The Earth is designed and maintained for just this specific reason. This requirement is the reason other planets are so dissimilar to Earth. They are not homes to human beings. They have no need. Were the great spiritual hierarchy of the planet to leave our globe would wither and become like Mars is today.

Getting too long. I'll stop here.

James

Last edited by bartholomew : 02-05-2018 at 12:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-05-2018, 01:00 AM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,087
  7luminaries's Avatar
Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been.

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!!

As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-05-2018, 01:52 AM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been.

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.

You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!!

As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good.

Peace & blessings
7L


Bart hello there!
I agree consciousness exists independent of matter, that it is foundational and present in all, and that it always is and has been. My position is that all is present in consciousness

I don't premise any aspect of our individuated (yet fully connected and never separate) experience of consciousness and interbeing on any physical existence. So I agree with you on that as well. I also don't have any concept of consciousness as an effect of anything else, being that it is consciousness itself which is foundational. I also generally agree with and resonate with most of the rest of what you say. The bit about leadership, well, too true indeed

The experience of individuation or "birthing" of such is outside of time or space, being purely of consciousness and is more a human representation of awareness of (for lack of a better term) relative spiritual proximity in the larger tapestry or web. But yet there does seem to be an origination of the individuated consciousness relative to Unity, at least from our individuated perspective.Time and space. The later, space seems to describe the dominant aspect of our phenomenal universe. The prior, time, is more inclusive. We know that time results from dimension. ie: If there are two points with distance between them then to bridge the gap requires velocity. Time then becomes a consideration. But time is also present in much of the subtle worlds. Some have reported that time "flows" more slowly the higher we rise in spirit. Kind of like the speed of sound in our atmosphere slowing as we find thinner airs. On each of the planes there is matter. Not physical matter but matter composed of the stuff of each plane. ie: on the mental plane there is mental matter. When we are functional on the mental, for instance, we note that it seems substantive to us. And... we find that our existence is easily organized in terms of "before and after". So there is time on the mental. But how does this compare to time on Earth? Remembering the variations of the speed of sound and applying this through use of the law of correspondence we find that speed on the mental is slower than it is here on Earth. Indeed on one subplane of the mental it has been measured as being less than three quarters as fast. The same is true as we ascend. Like in our Earthly atmosphere we find that as we rise the matter of each plane is thinner, less substantive (relative ideas). So... time continues slowing. Finally at a certain point time stops. Here is the correspondence to the Newtonian speed limit said to exist in physical space. Time stops! Time no longer exists. In religion we often hear about how the way "God is". Jesus is said to have declared "before Abraham was, I am". This "I am" indicates functionality on such a high plane that all is in the present. Here also is the reason we can have freedom of choice yet God (term of convenience only) seems to know in advance how we will choose. Human souls are birthed on a certain level of the mental plane. Here there is time almost as we know it and there is also space but this is a little differently perceived.

When I say that consciousness is a principle it is because I am otherwise at a loss to define it in a better way. No matter how smart a man is there are always limits to his ability to know things. And.... we humans are restricted by our levels of consciousness too. If we raise ourselves through wisdom we can understand more but so long as we have to live in these bodies on a solid planet we have to settle for "not quite".


You also describe the origin of particularly human souls, and whilst this is not exactly what I speak of, I do understand that we cannot embody a human form unless everything that supports that has also come into being, then to fruition, and then is sustainable for an aeon or two.

As to why you are as you are (and not, say, as I am), etc., why your individuated aspect of Unity consciousness was "born" where you were, proximate to whomever you were, on the tapestry of consciousness...etc., well no one...whether human or transcendental...no one has these specific answers. Yes...I've asked them too hahaha !!! Here I believe we can go further and understand more by considering the combinations of our personalities and our soul aspects. Two men will agree yet disagree because they are not the same person with the same vantage points. (this opinion disregards the possibility of purposeful deceit). When a man is born he takes that first breath of air. But wait. There is more to this event. We also have ethereal bodies. These too respire just like the physical throughout our lives. So when we take the first breath into our physical a first breath is also taken into our ethereal bodies. This serves to condition the body by establishing a baseline of potential attributes which remains for the rest of the life. Here we find that we are speaking of astrology. Human personality attributes come from various distribution points found near and far. Constellations of stars provide some. Secondarily our own sun and planets provide others. This is a concern of vast esoteric import. Far too heavy duty for a quickie statement. Suffice to say that these two channels that open at birth are the physical and the subtle (spiritual). The personality is then a product of physical environment and experience but also of spiritual conditioning. All because of what happened at the moment of birth. This is the largely unknown reason astrologers who do natal charts want to know the time and place of birth. It's all real.

I spoke of the journey of the human soul because it seemed to be a necessary part of the "why" question that so many entertain. I have studied much in this area. And Bart is a source and guide to me who sometimes refuses to shut up. ha ha....


As they say, it'd only be from God's lips to your ears (so to speak)...and we won't know till we know, except to say in this interim of eternity that it is what it is, and that it's all to the good. I'm only a few years from my own return to the "heavenly fields". I intend to make full use of the opportunities that are then presented.

Good discussion. Thanks..

When you say "transcendental" do you refer to the post human paths of experience or do you mean something else?


Peace & blessings
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums