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  #151  
Old 18-04-2017, 10:49 PM
Gem Gem is online now
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Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong
Hey Gem,


I don't understand is Dzogchen learners only use a few words to prove his lower practice of religion or the limited using of words or argument creative power are exhausted江郎才尽. Or just to pretending his argument or outlook is higher than usual aspect of thought. But their achievement can never evolving to a high standard expected. Why? Is it just pretentious of wisdom or nothingness in Buddhism teaching?

I have very little idea about Dzogchen, and would prefer to avoid the subject because in the past it had only led to arguing. It's always about the higher position: the expert, teacher, one who is right. None of that has anything to do with the subject on this thread - except to point it out as a distraction.

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What I can comment is, it's a religion high in aiming but with limited perspective眼界狭小or be fastidious but incompetent眼高手低that means be exacting but incapable. His argument is of one pattern and the same mistake saying again and again. I think small kid also can rote from his writing as a copy cat. By using a few words to beat the world greatest event so he's confirm to beat about the bush.

Well in any spiritual card game 'emptiness' is the ace of diamonds, but really to win an argument is just the mind creating distractions, and that is an obstacle to observation, self-awareness. Of course the kind of vibe produced by the argument is tense, and people start to fight for the 'right' position. It's just a way of getting excited so as to create distraction. Here it the subject of observation, and that is 'right speech' because it reminds us to be mindful, rather than distracts us from it.

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If he went to the court or engage in a lawsuit , I wondered can he win the case? He doesn't bring out fact to prove but can he stand and argue in front of all religions or just in front of common people or human practice of human law? And he can argue with Buddhist by using Dzogchen teaching and to say, other's saying is not appropriate in Dzogchen. He must have forgotten we're doing the discussion of Buddhism. And he's not using Buddhism perspective to argue with Buddhist. That's funny especially for your thread.

You said your, I argued what I believed of mine but not Buddhism. That's absurd indeed. I wonder what are you people arguing about?

In my case, because I think it would be rude to completely disregard a person, I feel impelled to respond to people on my threads, but I try to keep coming back to the topic. In this case I agree that was taken too far off and became a bit lost in the nonsense, so I appreciate your reminder,as it helped me to notice my own distraction.
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  #152  
Old 19-04-2017, 01:19 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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One has to be careful I suppose they don't get trapped by the "space" they have become aware of and are creating from not willing to let go of it to more. I have found even with the point of understanding yourself as emptiness (moving as that more directly) one can forget that the movement of life moving with it is not going to be the same and so their is a natural and more conscious awareness of others, that they are going to offer you another view to let that move into your emptiness to build more and respond less about yourself and more about the combined shared space.The trap of emptiness can be that there isn't any more to learn and know beyond its own emptiness point. In is "unmoved" awareness, it can be unwilling to integrate and open to more of life that it is moving in that space of itself..Yet the awareness of emptiness in myself has shown me more directly that its not about what I am moving as as that that holds the meaning, but it is how I move and what I move with that builds on that point of awareness..My emptiness, ground of being, already knows itself, it doesn't have to prove itself and show itself as that. If your focused on "this is how it is" for me, there is no room to move with other life more open and readily to deepen not only the how of life moving, but how you move as that more open to life. In this view naturally your "presence and how you relate will shine itself as that" And we have choices even in emptiness to know how to do and be this. Unless of course we play zombie robotic mode that relies on its intellectual capacity that tells itself "I am emptiness, I have nothing to give you" ....great signal it is sending.
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  #153  
Old 19-04-2017, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by naturesflow
One has to be careful I suppose they don't get trapped by the "space" they have become aware of and are creating from not willing to let go of it to more.


Yes. It's me that became distracted and I should have been aware I was only getting roped into futility, but I noticed I was saying things that were inane, and started wondering why I was stating the obvious, the Jeremy gave me the reminder, so I stopped. On 'letting go'... well, observation is to notice what is, but it doesn't mean passivity. For example a child falls in the pool and it's not as though I'm like 'it is'. I jump to it and pull the child from the water lest they drown! Then I comfort the child because I wish them to be happy. That illustrates kindness.

Quote:
I have found even with the point of understanding yourself as emptiness (moving as that more directly) one can forget that the movement of life moving with it is not going to be the same and so their is a natural and more conscious awareness of others, that they are going to offer you another view to let that move into your emptiness to build more and respond less about yourself and more about the combined shared space.

I don't think what happened was offering a view. I think it was a tack to start an argument, and I got sucked in. There were signs of this I should have been wise to, but my own excitement got the better of me and started saying childish things. Luckily I noticed it and readjusted myself. That's what I suggest to other people. Not 'don't do it' (I never even said that), and I'm now repeating what I did say earlier on, but be conscious and aware of what you're doing. I'm now the example of how one can become distracted and become less mindful of what they do. But I am also the example of noticing that distraction and returning to conscious self awareness. Well, it's only appropriate I should demonstrate my own point, innit!

Quote:
The trap of emptiness can be that there isn't any more to learn and know beyond its own emptiness point.


Well, I'm not going to talk about emptiness because Buddhist threads do tend to bring it up, and it has usually been played like the expert's trump card in the past, and leads to argument/right/wrong, which I strongly discourage in the same sense that I discourage willfully drowning babies! That said, I appreciate your view in speaking from yourself.

Quote:
In is "unmoved" awareness, it can be unwilling to integrate and open to more of life that it is moving in that space of itself..


Right - that sounds a bit like what I call 'purification'. Or maybe 'transformation'. Or even 'integration'.

Quote:
Yet the awareness of emptiness in myself has shown me more directly that its not about what I am moving as as that that holds the meaning, but it is how I move and what I move with that builds on that point of awareness..My emptiness, ground of being, already knows itself, it doesn't have to prove itself and show itself as that.

Yep, you know yourself so have little to nothing to prove. Me, I know my own nature so I'm only interested in the conversation as it unfolds, but I realised I need to become more alert to obstacles in the flow, and I gladly eat my humble pie as I learned there is that I have to watch out for which tends to arise in myself and distract me into a reactive process. I will recognise that much more easily from now on, and this means the thread has filled its purpose in that I, at least, gained some small benefit.

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If your focused on "this is how it is" for me, there is no room to move with other life more open and readily to deepen not only the how of life moving, but how you move as that more open to life.

I would say life is moving, and that's how it is, being aware of 'what is' basically opens up the freedom of that movement - and possibly more.

Quote:
In this view naturally your "presence and how you relate will shine itself as that" And we have choices even in emptiness to know how to do and be this. Unless of course we play zombie robotic mode that relies on its intellectual capacity that tells itself "I am emptiness, I have nothing to give you" ....great signal it is sending.


Yes. A lot of the spiritual talk could be inferred as flat, robotic disposition, rather than the vibrant, vital quality which is noticeable as life. I think this happens when people try to teach truths, but in this thread I discourage that and encourage the observation, to notice for each of ourselves 'what it's like' to be alive. I know I went off track, but this just demonstrates what happens when the discourse becomes separate from the practice. Notice one's own distractions, and upon noticing them, you've become consciously aware - right?
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  #154  
Old 19-04-2017, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Gem
I suggest you distinguish between the stuff you're making up with what you acknowledge.
Actually there is no difference because all and everything exists only depending on imputation. Since I do know that everything boils down on whether we find an agreement on using the same linguistic expressions or not. If we find an agreement then the corresponding expression would be called 'our convention' but still be empty of truth. And if we don't find an agreement there wouldn't arise a convention but we would go on applying different linguistic expressions in a given context which would be empty of truth too.
A need to come to an agreement on using certain linguistic expressions in given contexts would arise only if we would be working on the same project. And sharing a goal (success of the project) I am certain that we would succeed to find 'our conventions' which still would be empty of truths even if our project based on these conventions would be sucessful.
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  #155  
Old 19-04-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ground
Actually there is no difference because all and everything exists only depending on imputation. Since I do know that everything boils down on whether we find an agreement on using the same linguistic expressions or not. If we find an agreement then the corresponding expression would be called 'our convention' but still be empty of truth.

Exactly, this is about observation and has nothing to do with truth, apart from it being truthful.

Quote:
And if we don't find an agreement there wouldn't arise a convention but we would go on applying different linguistic expressions in a given context which would be empty of truth too.
A need to come to an agreement on using certain linguistic expressions in given contexts would arise only if we would be working on the same project. And sharing a goal (success of the project) I am certain that we would succeed to find 'our conventions' which still would be empty of truths even if our project based on these conventions would be sucessful.

Agreement and disagreement are irrelevant to observation, and the mind leaping from agree to disagree is distracted, and more inventive than attentive.

The thread is successful only when the discourse serves as a reminder that brings any person out of their thought and into observation, as we may return to ourselves over and over each time we become distracted - with no concern for the numerous times we may do so.
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  #156  
Old 19-04-2017, 09:33 AM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
Yes. It's me that became distracted and I should have been aware I was only getting roped into futility, but I noticed I was saying things that were inane, and started wondering why I was stating the obvious, the Jeremy gave me the reminder, so I stopped. On 'letting go'... well, observation is to notice what is, but it doesn't mean passivity. For example a child falls in the pool and it's not as though I'm like 'it is'. I jump to it and pull the child from the water lest they drown! Then I comfort the child because I wish them to be happy. That illustrates kindness.

Yes I noticed in reflection Jeremy opened me to notice something more too. I see what your showing in the whole shared space of one's response, which in relation to what I am sharing about emptiness and emptiness moving itself mindful and attentive to what is there and what the "need" of that shared space does, relates back in me to why I was moved to respond as I did. If your the one called to dive in and respond then its natural your going to do it the way you as you believe you will. What moves in that shared space all the same is something that may change up and change you in the way you thought you might respond. I guess every situation and circumstance is going to be what it is with potential for more to be seen, responded too, which could have you move very different to what your may have envisioned would be. Which of course makes every situation unique in the response it may require for you, the one responding. As an example you could pull the child out and believe you would comfort the child in kindness, that would be the most natural aware thing to do. But awareness of the whole space might require you to act differently as to what you might anticipate would be your reaction towards them. Comfort might be ducking their hands trying to get you away from them because they have an aversion to touch or a stranger engaging them in such circumstances. All the same one would try their best in whatever was going on in that space, I would imagine..
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I don't think what happened was offering a view. I think it was a tack to start an argument, and I got sucked in. There were signs of this I should have been wise to, but my own excitement got the better of me and started saying childish things. Luckily I noticed it and readjusted myself. That's what I suggest to other people. Not 'don't do it' (I never even said that), and I'm now repeating what I did say earlier on, but be conscious and aware of what you're doing. I'm now the example of how one can become distracted and become less mindful of what they do. But I am also the example of noticing that distraction and returning to conscious self awareness. Well, it's only appropriate I should demonstrate my own point, innit!


I didn't notice an argument but certainly something that wanted to keep on repeating itself just from a different angle of itself, but going over the same thing, if that makes sense. I kind of envision this more, moving around itself at the core aware and pin pointing from every angle of that awareness, the same thing over and over, which seems silly really. The movement, in this way, then maintains itself not really moving out of that "space" because it keeps going around in circles with itself.. Yes its good to self reflect and move differently when you feel yourself caught up in others moving around the core, rather than entering into it to notice how that is and consequently then, how it can move and listen differently, engage differently and not keep going round and round in and of itself the same ole same ole way..You can demonstrate anyway you want. I got no issues with it at all. Just moving myself to share as it lands and falls.


Quote:
Well, I'm not going to talk about emptiness because Buddhist threads do tend to bring it up, and it has usually been played like the expert's trump card in the past, and leads to argument/right/wrong, which I strongly discourage in the same sense that I discourage willfully drowning babies! That said, I appreciate your view in speaking from yourself
.

Fair enough and thanks for showing appreciation of my view.



Quote:
Right - that sounds a bit like what I call 'purification'. Or maybe 'transformation'. Or even 'integration'.

Yep all three could/can fit that space.


Quote:
small benefit.
Yep, you know yourself so have little to nothing to prove. Me, I know my own nature so I'm only interested in the conversation as it unfolds, but I realised I need to become more alert to obstacles in the flow, and I gladly eat my humble pie as I learned there is that I have to watch out for which tends to arise in myself and distract me into a reactive process. I will recognise that much more easily from now on, and this means the thread has filled its purpose in that I, at least, gained some


Yes your showing the nature of moving more open and aware, willing to reflect through the nature of your own flow with the obstacles as they present themselves. I tend to do this and speaking out loud the process tends to support that shared space too.



Quote:
I would say life is moving, and that's how it is, being aware of 'what is' basically opens up the freedom of that movement - and possibly more.




Quote:
Yes. A lot of the spiritual talk could be inferred as flat, robotic disposition, rather than the vibrant, vital quality which is noticeable as life. I think this happens when people try to teach truths, but in this thread I discourage that and encourage the observation, to notice for each of ourselves 'what it's like' to be alive. I know I went off track, but this just demonstrates what happens when the discourse becomes separate from the practice. Notice one's own distractions, and upon noticing them, you've become consciously aware - right?

I like that, vital, vibrant qualities moving through the flow. I know you notice the subtle nature of such matters as I do too. The movements of it's knowing moving itself, rather then the movements of its knowing and life force, moving as one. There is a definitive difference if one notices this in themselves. I mean we are a fully functioning human beings so the awareness of yourself as you know yourself to be, doesn't require one to linger in the guts of that, but move that into the guts of you more holistically as a whole grounded being. I am with you on the nature of observation and self reflection on what it is like to be more vitally alive as your presence in life rather than being the zombie I mentioned. I mean their is nothing wrong with zombies, but I think the mind can bet caught up in and of itself sometimes and what it is being, that the shift from the mind deeper into that fullness of ones being/mind, body, can show much more in the deepening of yourself and how you are with yourself and other life.

Thanks for showing things as you did, it was good observation for myself understanding and noticing more..
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  #157  
Old 20-04-2017, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by naturesflow
Yes I noticed in reflection Jeremy opened me to notice something more too. I see what your showing in the whole shared space of one's response, which in relation to what I am sharing about emptiness and emptiness moving itself mindful and attentive to what is there and what the "need" of that shared space does, relates back in me to why I was moved to respond as I did.

I know the experts will say I'm wrong, but I just say this conscious awareness is not mine or yours, but a 'oneness' and everything we may perceive is alive with it. I first noticed this some years ago while wanling the dog, when as I looked out to the world, it looked straight back at me form everywhere at once. Everything came alive with vibrant vitality and I realised the whole thing is alive, and it's all 'watching'.

Quote:
If your the one called to dive in and respond then its natural your going to do it the way you as you believe you will. What moves in that shared space all the same is something that may change up and change you in the way you thought you might respond. I guess every situation and circumstance is going to be what it is with potential for more to be seen, responded too, which could have you move very different to what your may have envisioned would be.

Yes. I was only inventing a scenario. A real life situation might be very different.

Quote:
Which of course makes every situation unique in the response it may require for you, the one responding. As an example you could pull the child out and believe you would comfort the child in kindness, that would be the most natural aware thing to do. But awareness of the whole space might require you to act differently as to what you might anticipate would be your reaction towards them. Comfort might be ducking their hands trying to get you away from them because they have an aversion to touch or a stranger engaging them in such circumstances. All the same one would try their best in whatever was going on in that space, I would imagine..


I didn't notice an argument but certainly something that wanted to keep on repeating itself just from a different angle of itself, but going over the same thing, if that makes sense.

To me it's pretty clear that the intent was to argue, hence one would seek out items to argue over. I just got roped into it against my better judgment.

Quote:
I kind of envision this more, moving around itself at the core aware and pin pointing from every angle of that awareness, the same thing over and over, which seems silly really. The movement, in this way, then maintains itself not really moving out of that "space" because it keeps going around in circles with itself.. Yes its good to self reflect and move differently when you feel yourself caught up in others moving around the core, rather than entering into it to notice how that is and consequently then, how it can move and listen differently, engage differently and not keep going round and round in and of itself the same ole same ole way..You can demonstrate anyway you want. I got no issues with it at all. Just moving myself to share as it lands and falls.
I just have to practice what I preach, which would be appropriate... teehee.


Quote:
Yep all three could/can fit that space.

These three would be on topic transformation, purification or integration, because they are the consequence of the pure observation.

I know what a pure observation is - what I mean by it, but I can only describe in terms of what it isn't. I speak on the premise that observation is what's happening anyway, and it therefore isn't something anyone has to do. Rather, it is about what one ceases to do, so I made a post about cessation - the cessation of 'volition' (activity/reactivity). The cessation is about stopping and noticing what is going on, and being aware of reactivity as it arises, and it isn't about 'don't do that'.

An analogy. A person is mentally agitated and their body is tense because of that. Suddenly the person notices their shoulders are tense, and before they even think 'relax shoulders' their shoulders relax simply from noticing the tension. We usually think they relaxed their shoulders, but relaxing isn't doing - it is a stop doing - the cessation of tensing. The instruction 'don't do that' isn't part of it. In some cases there will be a tension noticed, but it won't relax, or maybe it relaxes when noticed but tenses up again when they are not paying attention to it. My meditation is primarily a body awareness practice, and for example, one of my legs would tense habitually. Each time I checked on my leg, it would be tense, I relax it, next time I check it is tense again. It was ingrained as habit to tense it, and the psychological connection that made it tense was also habitual, and this harboured or held mentality is what we call 'sankara' - a mental/emotional block, habitual activity/reactivity which one may not be conscious of. In the same way though, when one notices these, they 'come to light' at a deeper level and that stuck bit of mentality opens up, along with the body part - in this case, my leg. Now I do not tense my leg, and each time I check on it it is relaxed.

That means, I stopped and looked, I noticed, and the awareness was thus integrated through the body to mind. Because conscious awareness integrated with that place, it was transformed by the 'light of conscious awareness' - which is the purification, or the opening up, of that space. And what I once did in that regard, has ceased.

People can try to argue and make this right and wrong if they please, but this is a descriptive narrative for the sake of conversation, and it is not a prescriptive statement or a claim of truth. The meaning it might hold is perhaps relatable, or perhaps not.

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Yes your showing the nature of moving more open and aware, willing to reflect through the nature of your own flow with the obstacles as they present themselves. I tend to do this and speaking out loud the process tends to support that shared space too.

Yep. I'm just a regular person with the flaws an issues and attributes and strengths and weaknesses much like anyone else, and sorry I don't have 'the answers' for all you ignoramuses teehee.









Quote:
I like that, vital, vibrant qualities moving through the flow. I know you notice the subtle nature of such matters as I do too. The movements of it's knowing moving itself, rather then the movements of its knowing and life force, moving as one. There is a definitive difference if one notices this in themselves. I mean we are a fully functioning human beings so the awareness of yourself as you know yourself to be, doesn't require one to linger in the guts of that, but move that into the guts of you more holistically as a whole grounded being. I am with you on the nature of observation and self reflection on what it is like to be more vitally alive as your presence in life rather than being the zombie I mentioned. I mean their is nothing wrong with zombies, but I think the mind can bet caught up in and of itself sometimes and what it is being, that the shift from the mind deeper into that fullness of ones being/mind, body, can show much more in the deepening of yourself and how you are with yourself and other life.

Thanks for showing things as you did, it was good observation for myself understanding and noticing more..

Sometimes, I think, spirituality gets away and become a separate thing to the everyday and mundane, but I don't think that is a good idea because it leads to people chasing the 'spectacular' which is a distraction from what is the case right here and now. I wonder if this itch on my ear is 'less spiritual' than the free flow of energy in my body - and to me it isn't - it's all the same to me. I mean to me, spirituality is nothing more that the awareness of what is as you experience it to be - which is the case anyway. Distraction would be 'pining after the spectacular', that desire pulling you away from life as it is into the craving for imagined 'spiritual experiences'.

As I said earlier on, 'that which is aware' is spiritual, and of course that which is aware is you. Distraction is all the mentalites that draw attention away form its source, yourself. The practice, then, is to remain here with what is now, and notice whatever distracts you so that you return to being present. This is all I suggest in view of this being spiritual conversation, as each of us may, and probably will, be swept off by our excitable minds sometimes.
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  #158  
Old 20-04-2017, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gem
Agreement and disagreement are irrelevant to observation, and the mind leaping from agree to disagree is distracted, and more inventive than attentive.
Linguistic agreements or disagreements are very important in the context of everyday observation. Just imagine you want to buy bread but are given shoes when asking for bread. Can you eat shoes?
Or in every professional context. Imagine scientists working on a project not being able to agree what linguistic expressions they use to express observations. The project is going to fail.
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Originally Posted by Gem
The thread is successful only when the discourse serves as a reminder that brings any person out of their thought and into observation, as we may return to ourselves over and over each time we become distracted - with no concern for the numerous times we may do so.
The thread offers inspiration for those inclined to see, process and express. I wouldn't call that 'success', it is just what happens spontaneously.
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  #159  
Old 20-04-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ground
Linguistic agreements or disagreements are very important in the context of everyday observation. Just imagine you want to buy bread but are given shoes when asking for bread. Can you eat shoes?
Or in every professional context. Imagine scientists working on a project not being able to agree what linguistic expressions they use to express observations. The project is going to fail.

It's not only irrelevant to the thread, but it inhibits understanding of its subject.


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The thread offers inspiration for those inclined to see, process and express. I wouldn't call that 'success', it is just what happens spontaneously.

Indeed, that represents the nature of the thread very well.
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Old 20-04-2017, 10:34 PM
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It's not only irrelevant to the thread, but it inhibits understanding of its subject.
Maybe you are aiming at creating an extra-sphere where extra contrived methods apply ... a view that works in isolation from everyday life. Something 'spiritual' opposed to non-spiritual.
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