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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Buddhism

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  #11  
Old 12-08-2015, 06:14 PM
RyanWind RyanWind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diijin
KYOGEN said to his pupils: "Zen is a man hanging from a tree over a cliff. He is holding on to a twig with his teeth. His hands hold
no branch. His feet find no branch. Up on the cliff-edge a man
shouts at him: 'Why did Bodhidharma come from India into China?'
"If he fails to answer he is lost. If he answers, he dies. What
must he do?"

The man is a metaphor for consciousness. The tree, branches, and twig is thought. His teeth are attention. Consciousness is holding onto thought with the attention. The line, "his hands hold no branch, his feet find no branch is about the true nature of thought. Thought only has the reality we give it. It is a phantom. One cannot really get a hold of it or control it. The man shouting at him is insight. A flash of self awareness. It asks a question about the nature of what is. What is is the attention holding onto a thought. If he fails to find the meaning of the insight, he is lost, still stuck in thought. If he answers the question he sees the true nature of the false self. Thought stops with the awareness of it's true nature. The false self based on thought and not conscious awareness dies.
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  #12  
Old 13-08-2015, 05:08 AM
QT Pie QT Pie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanWind
The man is a metaphor for consciousness. The tree, branches, and twig is thought. His teeth are attention. Consciousness is holding onto thought with the attention. The line, "his hands hold no branch, his feet find no branch is about the true nature of thought. Thought only has the reality we give it. It is a phantom. One cannot really get a hold of it or control it. The man shouting at him is insight. A flash of self awareness. It asks a question about the nature of what is. What is is the attention holding onto a thought. If he fails to find the meaning of the insight, he is lost, still stuck in thought. If he answers the question he sees the true nature of the false self. Thought stops with the awareness of it's true nature. The false self based on thought and not conscious awareness dies.

You took this very deeply, I love it!
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  #13  
Old 15-08-2015, 02:04 PM
TheImmortal TheImmortal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diijin
thank you for reading, i found this one
confused me for the monk made it a dicothomic problem seeming something
must be done, but my thought is 'put sandals on my head' if i were the man choping on a tree branch. rather i liked the story about
the strawberry plant better. that one was sweet.
who has an answer for this?
thanks
Diijin

* * *
KYOGEN said to his pupils: "Zen is a man hanging from a tree over
a cliff. He is holding on to a twig with his teeth. His hands hold
no branch. His feet find no branch. Up on the cliff-edge a man
shouts at him: 'Why did Bodhidharma come from India into China?'
"If he fails to answer he is lost. If he answers, he dies. What
must he do?"
* * *

Empty the mind (emptiness) and be done with the whole matter. The dilemma is thus resolved.



EDIT: For those who are interested, there are two books that I would highly recommend on Zen koans. They're not always easy reading, but I have found them to be very illuminating.

1. Two Zen Classics, The Gateless Gate and The Blue Cliff Records (Translated by Katsuki Sekida).

2. Zen Masters of China, The First Step East (Richard Bryan McDaniel)
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  #14  
Old 16-08-2015, 03:51 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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I like this commentary by ancient C'han Zen master Ta Hui:
"Hanging from a cliff, let go-
And agree to accept the experience.
After annihilation, come back to life-
I cannot deceive you."
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  #15  
Old 16-08-2015, 04:11 PM
celest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capacity
I like this commentary by ancient C'han Zen master Ta Hui:
"Hanging from a cliff, let go-
And agree to accept the experience.
After annihilation, come back to life-
I cannot deceive you."

Love it, one thing about zen koans is they certainly make you think, they keep the brain cells oiled .
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  #16  
Old 16-08-2015, 04:20 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celest
Love it, one thing about zen koans is they certainly make you think, they keep the brain cells oiled .
Yes I think they serve a purpose but I think also that there comes a time when a koan best serves us as a symbolic form of expressing what we already know, as opposed to being a symbolic method to try and understand the koan itself.
If that makes any sense.
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The cessation of identifying with the fluctuations arising within consciousness
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  #17  
Old 16-08-2015, 04:55 PM
celest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capacity
Yes I think they serve a purpose but I think also that there comes a time when a koan best serves us as a symbolic form of expressing what we already know, as opposed to being a symbolic method to try and understand the koan itself.
If that makes any sense.

Was that answer a koan ?
I do know what you mean though.
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  #18  
Old 16-08-2015, 05:08 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celest
Was that answer a koan ?
I do know what you mean though.
Yes I guess it was a koan...,because you did understand it, ( I kinda knew you would). I'm sure that you can see that if you didn't already understand it, that no amount of contemplating it would matter. That was my point.
Letting go, while it can be like opening up and freeing oneself of beliefs and such is at a deeper level, like letting go of a tree branch that you are holding into over a cliff by your mouth. It's like dying. But at the same time it doesn't happen until you understand the safety and beauty of it. We are made ready and we let go and yet we have nothing to do with the process.
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  #19  
Old 16-08-2015, 05:55 PM
celest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capacity
Yes I guess it was a koan...,because you did understand it, ( I kinda knew you would). I'm sure that you can see that if you didn't already understand it, that no amount of contemplating it would matter. That was my point.
Letting go, while it can be like opening up and freeing oneself of beliefs and such is at a deeper level, like letting go of a tree branch that you are holding into over a cliff by your mouth. It's like dying. But at the same time it doesn't happen until you understand the safety and beauty of it. We are made ready and we let go and yet we have nothing to do with the process.


Sometimes I like to contemplate
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  #20  
Old 16-08-2015, 06:23 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celest
Sometimes I like to contemplate
Me too.....
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