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  #31  
Old 06-11-2017, 10:38 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nature Grows
Hmmm.... interesting question, integrate or renounce, well, what makes sense to me is you expand yourself you realize everything you are or what ever else you have discoverer then you come back to the body and yourself and life with all that and you live your life with better understanding/clarity then before which can help you and others, thats the idea, so integrate, i would say integrate. You can be intimately one with all of life and creation yet absolutely free of it at the same time though, think of a tv, the tv does not suffer or have the same fate as the characters on it's screen.

Also i want to add that having realizations or getting downloads or looking at things from different perspectives are great but what's more important is the Love in your heart. So an integration of both of those is good too.

.

Yes, well said NatureGrows.
I'll give my thoughts next in response to the OP, but IMO you highlighted some key truths here.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #32  
Old 06-11-2017, 10:48 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Some say that one is not the body and renounce the ailments of the body .

For some they refer to the body as a temple of sorts .

I understand that the body manifest can be seen in both ways and depending of context both ways of perceiving the manifest body is correct .

While I AM of the manifest body and the body contains life, I AM not renouncing it, as a matter of fact I AM self healing daily .

It's an interesting journey however which way one perceives it ..

Can you love yourself and not the body .. can you love yourself and renounce a part of yourself?


x daz x
Hey there Dazzer...like you, I can see both sides.
IMO we aren't meant to choose...we are meant to integrate and have it all, IMO. But as you say, it's all down to the individual at a moment in time and space, and where we each are on our journeys. I agree with that.

I generally have always stood for integration, as I myself cannot really function normally without it, as a rule. But there are always exceptions to the rule, aren't there? And sometimes, whilst integrating, we are at a place that is off-centre, perhaps even by necessity.

Equanimity is the balance of self-centeredness and other-centredness...and there's really no need for any other form of detachment, IMO. Equanimity will heal your broken spirit even when the vessel of your heart has cracked open and bled dry, leaving you numb. When you have been stripped bare of all flesh and you have nothing, equaminity is the something that brings you back to the fullness of your humanity. Importantly, there is a place on our journey where we cannot go until we have been through this barren place. Equanimity is the disciple of humility and grace. All things are ultimately, but it's equanimity that carries us more deeply into the presence of our divine selves even when we have nothing else watering the vessel of our hearts. Eventually, we integrate and come to centre and union as you mention, but from a much more deeply rooted, unshakeable, and subtly yet so beautifully illuminated understanding of authentic love, which is our foundational experience of union, or oneness.

Through equanimity, you emerge from the barren wastelands into a place of renewal of the spirit, of the soul, as an entirely new you which somehow is the same as you ever were, at centre. But with a deeper gaze. And a fullness of authentic love for yourself, for others, and for all that is. Regardless of suffering or pain and regardless of good feelings. This fullness is what I call sublime joy. The gurus called it ananda, or, the joy without which the universe could not (would not) exist. And by that, they do not mean only the non-material universe, nor only the realm of non-incarnated spirits. They mean, and I mean, all of this. Us too, just as we are.

What I understood you Greenslade and others have either mentioned or even perhaps cautioned against is the unbalanced kind...where we equate escapism and apathy with growth and pursue it at the expense of grounding ourselves in our being and in our centre. And yet, the deeper the roots, the higher the treetops. That is the thing...we cannot be One or "find God" without grounding in our centre and being who we are in this moment. And in each moment. Sacred, present, and illuminated.

Peace & blessings,
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #33  
Old 06-11-2017, 11:10 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Can you love yourself and not the body .. can you love yourself and renounce a part of yourself?


x daz x

You mentioned you were not renouncing, that you were self-healing daily.

I think that is exactly the answer to your last. Because those parts we don't like, or perhaps "fear and loathing" is the better phrase, are those parts of ourselves most likely tied to some of our deepest and most ancient wounds.

Not even of this lifetime, necessarily, and very often not. What seem to be recent, say from childhood or something else of this life, so often tie back to prior lifetimes and wounds inflicted or received that were not healed. Not forgiven. Not reconciled. And thus not fully healed.

Not in the realm of union and one and spirit, and thus not in this material realm either, into which we incarnate as integrated spiritual and material beings.

Those things about us that we dislike, fear, or loathe...these are our ancient wounds. And for most of us, the ancient wounds are not well-healed. So we strengthen and fortify and discipline, and we learn to be the love we are and for which we have been created to both give and receive. And in the interim, we learn to channel the energies productively or less harmfully, at least.

From my last lifetime as a man, where I was tortured and murdered by the one I loved most (my twin brother), I have a place deep down inside that has an dark understanding of the taste for torture. Mixed in with the intense love and betrayal and my abilitly to feel the rush of power he was feeling...it got all messed up in my heart.

I have no visceral bloodlust as a woman, I am not a violent or angry person in the least. I'm extremely patient and forgiving, like many women. But nonetheless, I recognise this particular thing deep inside, so very deep...and I have come to realise the genesis of it as well. It is tied to a very personal experience, to a very particular death. That was three lifetimes before this one but nothing was healed because my lives after that as women were nothing special for their day, sadly...that is, abusive, brutal, and short. And in my first life as a woman, I was murdered again.

I have always enjoyed the superhero and kung fu movies...they fight for a noble cause, they don't use guns, and they actually get to walk away from the beat downs alive. Is this a healthy outlet? When the violence is too gratuitous, I make myself consciously acknowledge that was needlessly dark, and that's my sign to stop watching.

I've made my peace with it...it's cathartic so I consider it a part of my self-healing but in a different way than the meditation and work with guides and soul fam, LOL... And I'm working to make peace with everyone else, too. What about you? How's your self-healing coming along?

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #34  
Old 07-11-2017, 12:57 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Hey there Moonglow

People tend to project onto Spirit - Spirit is 'up there' and away from it all, another way of renouncing the human in them?

We're here for our Biblical three score and ten years, once we pop our clogs we have an eternity of being Spirit - and how long did we have as Spirit before we came here? We have a short time - for the sake of illustration - as human do do what we need to do, to have the experience and learn from it. Might as well make the best of it.

If we are here to learn the lessons, which ones? As Spirit we're as Spiritual as it goes, then some.

Hey there Greenslade,

What comes to mind is;

I feel Spirit's presence just the same through the energy exchanged and the life that pulses through me and others. It is felt through out my whole being at present and in life that unfolds before me.

So, it is here and there. Meaning also had "visits" from those loved ones who have passed from this physical state. Sensed through this physical being I am at present.
For what reason? Feel the connections never break, just transform. One stage of being into another. Those passed are done being physical, but some still come by to remind me the connection is always there.

So it does not resonate with me that Spirit is just "up there" or this physical being is somehow not of it.

Not meaning to go off topic here and feel it is right in line with topic. For each life intertwines with another and seems to Intergrated in a way.

Which leads the thoughts to drift that to renounce this physical experience somehow makes this life kind of null and void in a way. Which it is not. After this never again will it be experienced. Experienced through the senses, as well as, through the intuition. so, yes might as well make the best of it.

May not be back to live this again and enjoy a nice glass of wine or malt or see the power and beauty of this Earth. If so, go on as before being here. But why rush it?

Don't really know what "we" are learning, to be honest. I just feel gratitude for this life and the chance to be this Human-Being.

Thank you
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  #35  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:18 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I understand that getting the context clear regarding what is being referred too is paramount .

I think there are many ways to perceive what is real and what is illusory regarding all aspects of physicality .

What some point to is that only the Self that is beyond the mind-body is real so everything of the mind that includes physicality is illusory .

What I would say to that is that the concept of what is real and what is illusory must come from the intellectual field of the individual .

That individual that is supposedly illusory .

So we have potentially an illusion pointing to what's real .

The same applies to those that perceive the physical reality as a dream and all the dream characters are not real .

The dream character that is of the dream cannot know what is real because one is of the dream .

Dream characters, illusions, and life that are no more than just stories are just ways in my eyes to water down the experiences had .

Like said, I believe just because one has a lifetime as an individual and it is temporary doesn't make that experience to be illusory based ..

Beyond the so called illusory experiences there is no-one present that is real .


x daz x

I can get some of this as being dream like in way. The individual through his/her perspectives and interpretations seem to create a reality of sorts for him/her self.

But, who is to say whether these are any more real then anything else. For the individual it is. So, yes someone/something creates it to be.

Beyond mind and bodyis anyone in this as a permanent state? May realize things of this state, but come back to it being brought to mind and felt in body.

To me, can relate to what you present. To place in how it comes across at present, for me. We are the dreamers. We are the creators of our own realities. There is also nature and such creating its realities. All seem to interact and intertwine. It is happening and what has happened has its effects.

For if not then how did I become this individual I am? How did anything at present come into being? So, can agree the experience is real and all that has been, is, and will be creates it so, IMO.

Some thoughts on this.
Thank you
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  #36  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:25 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
the deeper the roots, the higher the treetops.



Perhaps at a slight push we can associate the deeper roots as an extension of our recognition that we are of the earthly body and of the physical reality .

I would say there are individuals that are truly living in the so called tree tops and cannot function in this physical reality for a limited time, but my main point I am making is those that are firm rooted to the earthly body and the physical realm renounce it and suggest it's somewhat illusory . To distance what they are from it doesn't in my eyes make a lot of sense when the realization of what you are reveals that there is only that .

The roots and the tree tops are that Self .

It's interesting that certain guru types distance themselves from their roots .



x dazzle x
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  #37  
Old 09-11-2017, 09:41 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
I can get some of this as being dream like in way. The individual through his/her perspectives and interpretations seem to create a reality of sorts for him/her self.

But, who is to say whether these are any more real then anything else. For the individual it is. So, yes someone/something creates it to be.

Beyond mind and bodyis anyone in this as a permanent state? May realize things of this state, but come back to it being brought to mind and felt in body.

To me, can relate to what you present. To place in how it comes across at present, for me. We are the dreamers. We are the creators of our own realities. There is also nature and such creating its realities. All seem to interact and intertwine. It is happening and what has happened has its effects.

For if not then how did I become this individual I am? How did anything at present come into being? So, can agree the experience is real and all that has been, is, and will be creates it so, IMO.

Some thoughts on this.
Thank you


I have had chats of late that reflect the waking state and the dream state and spoke about the similarities and the differences . If there wasn't a stark difference realized upon awaking then one would not be aware that they are awake or of a dream for all there would be is awareness of what's occurring in those moments .

When there is Self realization there is no self, there is no awakened state or dream state, so when an individual says the Self is real and mind-body associations are illusory one must have the comparison .

The comparison therefore must be solely down to being aware of self beyond the physical-mind-body experience .

Spirit folk - guides are no longer of the physical and they might say that their spirit-etheric-form is illusory based upon what comparison? An experience of what they are of the causal-light-body?

And again this state of being maybe illusory based the comparison beyond the light-body .

We could go on and on comparing until there is a point reached where there is no thought that I AM and that would not entertain the notion that I AM real or illusory based upon one's attained state .

So the notion that the mind-body is not this and not that is compared to and with what? I am this and this lol ..


x dazzler x
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  #38  
Old 09-11-2017, 02:29 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Perhaps at a slight push we can associate the deeper roots as an extension of our recognition that we are of the earthly body and of the physical reality .

I would say there are individuals that are truly living in the so called tree tops and cannot function in this physical reality for a limited time, but my main point I am making is those that are firm rooted to the earthly body and the physical realm renounce it and suggest it's somewhat illusory . To distance what they are from it doesn't in my eyes make a lot of sense when the realization of what you are reveals that there is only that .

The roots and the tree tops are that Self .

It's interesting that certain guru types distance themselves from their roots .

x dazzle x

Yes. If carried too far, it's a disassociation or a denial at some level, because dealing with the reality of who we are right here, right now is difficult. Life is a journey of grounding and integrating your spirit and your consciousness within your heart, your body, and your environment, and the hope is that you get the hang of it before it's time to move on once more for this go-round.

There are reasons why we are here, why we incarnate. And as you said in an earlier post on another thread, at some point, the point is to remember. If one seeks to always flee the scene, it'll be difficult to ever come to that place of truth.

Once we begin to remember, though, it's the same thing all over again. Knowing who we are and why we're here, and what's on our plate, then do we still have the courage to be present to ourselves and remain grounded in the moment? That's the other big question, then, at that point.

BTW Dazzer, I think you skipped my 2nd post (#33)...so just mentioning in case you didn't see it. It was addressing your question on renunciation of unwanted aspects of the self...which I think you rightly tied into the whole issue of why some renounce...as they'd not have to work through these ugly bits, then, would they? At least, not right now

Peace & blessings Daz
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #39  
Old 09-11-2017, 05:43 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Over the years I've been attached to the fingers that touch the keyboard and I've been non attached to the fingers that touch the keyboard but now I just touch the keyboard without any thought of being attached or non attached to the fingers.
I'm happier now cuz I'm not attached to whether I'm attached or not lol.
I'm also happier now because I'm not attaching to believing I know I'm non attached lol
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  #40  
Old 09-11-2017, 08:15 PM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Entertaining two opposing concepts would be classed as integration so I believe it's possible to entertain the notion of self and no self, but what I have suggested is where is there a sense of I AM awareness .

While typing our posts is one aware of no self at the same time? Is one aware of what they are beyond the mindful universe at the same time as one is sitting on the toilet contemplating the meaning of life?

The actuality I would say is that self and no self exist depending solely on awareness . Awareness of what? Awareness of self? The absence of self?

To be aware of self to then renounce that very self is where I see the waters muddied ..

How can self renounce self when self raises the notion . To entertain the notion that no self has raised the notion would just re open the door to perhaps both self and no self raised the notion or even better still that there is no self or no, no-self and nothing actually arises, what seemingly arises has always been there lol .

If we potentially entertain every opposing concept within our mind then scrambled eggs comes to mind .

I think there is a structured reason for why we entertain / believe what we do . Is it right what we believe, can it be right and wrong at the same time . I suppose it depends on the actual situation at hand at the time .

Opening up a can of worms


x daz x
I have to go back to definitions because that's where it all begins, are we this self or that self and yet none of them? And if we are defining selfs - Higher Self, lower self, ego..... whatever other definition... what are we really doing? Dis-integrating ourselves?It seems that even in Samadhi where the self is transcended there's still a sense of I Am, a focus of consciousness.

Tyere's a myriad of self(s) and another myriad of definitions of those self(s), what should be integrated and which should be renounced - and awareness of each within its context. If we're going to listen to Spirituality we are multi-dimensional beings and a 'self' for me is simply the focus of consciousness at that moment, because I don't think our consciousness could cope with being a number of selfs at the same time.

"Infinitely large and infinitely small, no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being. Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.
One thing, all things: move along and intermingle without distinction"




VERSES ON THE FAITH MIND
by Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the third Zen Patriarch.
Translated by Ricahard B. Clarke.


The can of worms is in our heads.
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