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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #81  
Old 04-01-2018, 09:36 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
I didn't say that I thought that you thought it 'out'. ToughI certainly also didn't think there was a 'monkey' 'inside' you that came up with such a good composition for no 'reason' just by itself. Or are you implying that some one else who it not (i.e. neti! lol) you just used your brain and fingers to write it - and that you really are just an 'air'-head in realtion to that?

I just said what I said.

Quote:
Someone (I can't presently recall who) in this thread lauded (maybe I just projected it to be a laudation) 'neti-neti' a s philosophical basis for living an 'enlightened' life and hed up Ramana as a 'model' thereof. Yes, I agree neitehr you nor your typing fingers 'said' anything about "neti-net-in life away. I was the one who said something about that and offered an opinion in said regard.

You said "if you (delusionally or otherwise) wish to neti-neti your LIFE away. ". This not only implies me but stresses it.


Quote:
I get that a lot, Gem. Let me try to explain my 'position' on that score.

am not a 'mothering' type. I am here (in this forum) as part of an effort/intention to address humanity's current global emerency/crisis

Ok, I want no part of that mission.

Quote:
, which I 'see' as being the result of and its ills compounded by 'sloppy' self-indulgent philosophical formulations and derivative thinking and self-indulgent happiness-seeking, and to use it to 'seed' and 'set the stage' for future hopefully environmentally and socially more response-able civilizations.

I see what you're insinuating.

Quote:
I have no time for dilettants and dawdlers.

Do you suggest that this describes me (or is it just the insinuation of the overall passage?)

Quote:
(If you want to know more about me and what I am (or the 'God' in 'me' is) about, read the About the Author and Preface pages, 3 in all, of my book, available as free download from the Books page on my website.)

The short version of that is: I am not here (on the planet) to spoon-feed 'babies' or spar with "I will only eat what I like" recalcitrants. If you (anyone) have (has) what it takes to chew on and digest 'hard' stuff you (anyone) will find tackling my output worthwhile. If not I suggest you stay with eating mush.

Your insinuation is noted.

Quote:
I appreciate the degree to which you have engaged and (fair-mindedly IMO) wrestled with my stuff so far, BTW. And I would very much like to find out what kind of 'Gem' you really are. So, just in case you truly wish to engage with me and my views and values further, I invite you to do 'the work' necessary to thoughtfully engage with what's presented in the video linked to in the OP (not just thoughtlessly regurgitate 'standardized' rationalizations, however brilliantly) and then openly and articulately declare exactly what you 'discern' (from what he said) about the character of the fella who made the video, and what your 'assessment' of how he resolved (chose?) to regard said the two ladies he spoke about - the one he accompanies to the temple and the one he referred to as his (now ex) girlfriend. This after reading and taking into account what I said about his way of viewing (it was actually not, i.e. 'neti', relating IMO) to said women - which I eventually presented in this context of the ongoing conversation in this thread.

IOW, let's get down to the 'nitty-gritty' of the issues on the table in front of us and not waste any more time indulging in bandying about ideas which are merely just 'window-dressing' as as the Reality of Life is concerned.

I don't think I did any of the stuff you imply I did.

Quote:
Or not. Please be advised that I will probably treat any meaning ball(s) you throw in my direction as opportunities to (try to) hit 'home' runs ('home' meaning BIG PICTURE, as I see it, presentations. I expect the same from you. If this is not a game you would like to play in, then don't.

I'm just having a conversation. I didn't intend to compete or win any games.
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  #82  
Old 04-01-2018, 10:38 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
You said "if you (delusionally or otherwise) wish to neti-neti your LIFE away. ". This not only implies me but stresses it.
Yes, I said that. And I affirm that I regard anyone who subscribes to a "Neti, Neti" based philosophy as possibly therefore 'wasting' the opportunity which Life in a complex world affords them "to make the best of" or "fail to".

Of course, I have no way to know exactly how you (or anyone else) relate(s) to the "Neti, Neti" philosophical approach to Life. My statement was just mean to as articulately as possible alert you to my thought that if you (or anyone else) simple-mindedly relied on such an approach as many who laud "Neti, Neti" strike me [b]as[/] doing, you may well be throwing the opportunity I speak of 'away'. I meant this to be a 'wake up' call kind of provocation in case that was the case; that is all.

I see that you are 'fielding' my various statements without 'coming forward' and actively engaging by way of a fully self-disclosing response to them, except that you clearly share that you want no part in any mission such as mine. Which is fine with me. What you are 'seeing' and 'hearing' is just me executing my mission to the best of my ability. "He that hath eyes that see, let him see, and he that hath ears that hear, let him hear," summarizes what I am doing.

You or anyone else reading my posts, of course, have no obligation whatsoever to get on board with 'me' and/or 'my' shtick. I just wanted to give you as clear a statement as possible so you can as clearly as possible understand what I am about and why I am going about it in the way that I am.

Woohoo! This is the way I roll - or the way that THAT which is within me rolls, if you prefer to see it in such terms - Man!

Just put me on you ignore list if you don't want to see or hear any of the perspectives I present.
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  #83  
Old 05-01-2018, 01:55 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
Yes, I said that. And I affirm that I regard anyone who subscribes to a "Neti, Neti" based philosophy as possibly therefore 'wasting' the opportunity which Life in a complex world affords them "to make the best of" or "fail to".

Of course, I have no way to know exactly how you (or anyone else) relate(s) to the "Neti, Neti" philosophical approach to Life. My statement was just mean to as articulately as possible alert you to my thought that if you (or anyone else) simple-mindedly relied on such an approach as many who laud "Neti, Neti" strike me [b]as[/] doing, you may well be throwing the opportunity I speak of 'away'. I meant this to be a 'wake up' call kind of provocation in case that was the case; that is all.

I see that you are 'fielding' my various statements without 'coming forward' and actively engaging by way of a fully self-disclosing response to them, except that you clearly share that you want no part in any mission such as mine. Which is fine with me. What you are 'seeing' and 'hearing' is just me executing my mission to the best of my ability. "He that hath eyes that see, let him see, and he that hath ears that hear, let him hear," summarizes what I am doing.

Self-disclosure is something I understand, and the skills involved in creating a safe place and fostering trust and rapport are important. It is basically a consent issue, so it is unethical to coerce anyone into self-disclosure. It is important that a person has the freedom to self-disclose, and the degree to which they do, if and when they feel comfortable so doing, and on their own terms.

Quote:
You or anyone else reading my posts, of course, have no obligation whatsoever to get on board with 'me' and/or 'my' shtick. I just wanted to give you as clear a statement as possible so you can as clearly as possible understand what I am about and why I am going about it in the way that I am.

Woohoo! This is the way I roll - or the way that THAT which is within me rolls, if you prefer to see it in such terms - Man!

Just put me on you ignore list if you don't want to see or hear any of the perspectives I present.
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  #84  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:41 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Self-disclosure is something I understand, and the skills involved in creating a safe place and fostering trust and rapport are important. It is basically a consent issue, so it is unethical to coerce anyone into self-disclosure. It is important that a person has the freedom to self-disclose, and the degree to which they do, if and when they feel comfortable so doing, and on their own terms.
Absolutely!

I regret that what my transpersonal 'mission' functionally 'requires' is such that personal considerations necessarily be place in 'second' place in settings suxh as this. Should you ever feel moved to and wish to explore the possibility of connecting (with me in a personal way) "in a safe place and fostering trust and rapport" etc., please know that I am open to exploring doing so with you (I am not 'open' to just anyone in this way) via PMs, emails, and or Skype or Facebook's voip capabailities, and that in any and all such case(s) would only respond insofar as you initiate and so invite the next response from me.

Please also know that I have very much appreciated the 'non-hyperbolicity' of your communications in this and other threads. Over and out here-now.

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  #85  
Old 06-01-2018, 02:30 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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There seems to be a misunderstanding that should be looked at more closely.

Within the path of jnana yoga, ’net-neti’ is simply a shorthand term for the discrimination or discernment of Source consciousness by negating all ignorant, separative, false cognition of ego/sense, desire-mind, etc., thus facilitating by direct identification, entering, knowing, and becoming one with Source consciousness in life.

As such it is neither a negation of life, nor is it wasting the opportunity of life. If anything, it is a method for the affirmation of life’s true purpose and potential as the evolution of consciousness, because neti-neti leads to That which subsumes all by the negation of partial, limited (false) self with its limiting and limited cognition, separative, dualistic consciousness of ego which necessarily excludes all by its nature - thus allowing for the real purpose of life to be fulfilled: the realization of true Self and therefore the subjective becoming of all life in and through the individuated human life which is a microcosm of the ALL.

It is indeed a strange inversion of truth which says that the discovery of true self is somehow an aversion from and evasion of life and its greatest potential. That is the prior accomplishment of a conditional ignorance in life which is the basis of its evolution. Without the accelerated evolution provided by human spirituality in and through methods such as neti-neti (one of many) life remains a conditional ignorance and continues to perpetuate it (samsara).

Neti-neti (‘not this - not that’) is one method of continuous re-orientation, similar to the exclusion of extraneous thought in meditation - only in the form of a dynamic life-practice, as if the principle employed in meditation were extended into active life. It’s the practice of discriminating the quality of consciousness encountered in life and importantly, within oneself, and rejecting that which is undivine by an ongoing process of intuitive self-examination.

Otherwise, without this discrimination and realization of the divine, life - even at its ’best’, becomes simply a blind connoissuership of ignorance and a circuitous indefinite entrapment within it.

In the self-misleading belief that it is the warden, the ego sense doesn’t realize it is still an inmate of the prison, no matter how much freedom it purports to have within its inherently limited scope of awareness. It is perpetuating its own recalcitrance and recidivism by its ceaseless activity of separation, believing that its (unconscious) self-incarceration puts it ‘in-charge’ of a very small world. In touring the self-created prison, however, the discriminating being finds none of it representing true freedom - not the best meal, not the conjugal visit, the stroll in the yard, cigarette, card game, ‘security’ - it’s all still within the limitation of the false ego-sense, unless and until it releases itself to what is beyond itself, thus bringing down the walls by ceasing to perpetuate them by cognitive posture of being ‘the warden‘. No walls, no warden. No warden, no walls.

Neti-neti is a means of realizing the expansion of self into the infinity and will of true Self that is and contains all within Itself, the Real Self, not the illusory shadow of that Self.

~ J
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  #86  
Old 06-01-2018, 05:20 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Neti-neti is a means of realizing the expansion of self into the infinity and will of true Self that is and contains all within Itself, the Real Self, not the illusory shadow of that Self.
~ J
Partial quote just for reference. I thought the entire piece was a very understandable and thorough articulation of the philosophy, J, and I have absolutely no quibble with any aspect of that as such.

The main 'point' I wished to advance is that any philosophy (idea or set of ideas) is only a tool, and that any tool may be 'used' for 'good or bad', 'good' and 'bad' themselves just being creative-value related ideas.

Please read my criticisms of its (the 'neti-net' philopshy's) uses, such as yours which negatively pan any and all uses of the 'ego' (which also is just an idea referencing a facet of Life, both the idea and the facet itself just being tools) as necessarily being faulty or fault-prone in and of themselves, as being based on the observation that it often (though not always - I 'see' that it can be used for positive purposes ) results in egregious (IMO) kinds of 'crimes of omission' (just a meaningful figure of speach now!) against LIFE's purpose in incarnating in a 'body' among other bodies and hence naturally have a 'sense' of its 'own' 'self' being a distinct in many ways sub-SELF in the context of others 'selves' which are also likewise non-identical parts of the same SUPER-SELF.

IMO, because of the configuration of its concept-architecture (which IMO postures as though it has no 'configuration'al bias), the "neti-neti" philosophy tend to be very miss-leading. If nothing else, I think it is useless as a 'tool' for meaningfully sorting out and and hierarchically ordering conflicting LIFE values (of which there are REALLY many, IMO!) and wisely choosing between possibilities relating thereto (again, IMO).

Because I am devoted to fulfilling my purpose for incarnating and in facilitating others' fullfillments of their purposes in said regard, my dharma is leads me to criticize any philosophy which I 'see' as having 'blind spots' and/or as being miss-used, by you for example in this threadd as you self-reifyingly and other-dismissively sweep the validity and value of what I have present via many thoughtful posts under the "neti-neti" rug. You have merely reiterated the "neti-net" philosophy, as though you think saying it more clearly, actually relates to the truths/concepts/ideas which relate to things 'outside' of the "neti-neti philosphy 'box' which you live 'in' which I have presented and continue to present. In this regard, it looks to me like you are just interested in circularly reiterating what's going on 'in' your head. In this regards, you remind me of others on the world stage who can't (won't? in any case, don't!) actually relate to what others say about what they see, think, feel, believe, etc.

Your (the "Neti-Neti" philosophy's?) view has a lot of 'good' (positively useful) elements in it, but IMO it is only 'good' as far as it goes and often 'serves' thangs which I consider to be 'bad' because it doesn't go 'all the way' in terms of constructively relating to why we are here in all our interdepented-and-inteconnected-individual-personality-related GLORY in the first place.

"By their fruits ye shall know them" is a wisdom saying which applies here, I think. Others may of course have a different assessment in this regard - that's the wonderfulness of 'the truth' NOT being MONOlithic! Based on what I see, and please know I have seen a LOT that is pertinent to the issues I raise by virtue of having grown up in India. It is my 'assessment' that 'adherence' to said philosophy very often results in peeps (unconsciously?) betraying, i.e. not honoring and not positively utiliizing the opportunity which LIFE in incarnated forms providentially provides us with. I say unconsciously because such folks only see what's visible through that 'lens'. Which is why I also advocate that people look to see and then actually/meaningfully/positive relate to what's visible when one looks through other lenses, in your case what's visible pertaining to you through my lens.

My last comment to you, J, which I sincerely hope that you appreciate the signifance of even though I believe that you won't, is that my main motive in writing all this is to present it for other readers and consider and contemplate. I think that there's "a snowballs chance in hell" (as the saying goes) that someone as close-minded as I think you are in relation to the issues I am addressing will 'get' anything useful out of this.
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  #87  
Old 06-01-2018, 06:00 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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On the 'off chance' that my assessment summarized as "a snowball's chance in hell" in my previous post is wrong, J, let me ask you to going back to the OP and thoughtfully (re)consider the positionality/attidunality displayed in the video presenter's tales (in relation to the woman he accompanies to the temple and his now ex-girlfriend) and then openly/honestly share your what you ;'discern' and/or 'assess' about the level of his understanding and the state of his ('organic' life as opposed to 'ideational' life ) relatedness or lack thereof to others - of course taking into account and hopefully relation to what I shared in my various posts regarding what he self-disclosingly said in OP video link in this thread.

If you actually want to enter into an honest conversation about this real LIFE incident/subject instead of just eruditely sweeping it under the idea rug, do so.

If you don't, of course, don't.
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