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27-03-2016, 07:49 AM
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Master
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 5,806
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Fearless/fearful
What do you perceive as being fearless? Is it without bounds in your view? Does it immerse into life without limitations in the mind at all?
And what do you perceive as fearful? Is it bounded in some way in your view of it? And what might it be bounded by?
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Fear is a derivative, non-primal thing. there must be an object to fear, or a possibility, and there must be a thing which would face that object or possibility - something needing protection from jeopardy.
Fear does not emanate from Source energy; not directly.
I'm reminded of the bible verse which states "perfect love casts out fear" ( 1 John 4:18).
the absence of fear is fearlessness, and this is as boundless as Source is.
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27-03-2016, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by naturesflow
What is it that sets this up?
Meaning if I am quite comfortable and not afraid, but just don't want to do it, does this mean I am afraid, unable to be fearless, or am I still afraid.
I know that this relates more to being open without fear, which means I am more sensitive, more in tune with things around me, weighing up lots, more clearly, listening more and not avoiding myself, so now more than being trapped in fear, it feels more unsafe. I see I won't put myself in situations that many fearless people do, simply because to me it just doesn't feel safe.
So what creates this in people to not be concerned about safety or feel that something's are unsafe etc etc, but more want to experience so many death defying things in life, be overly adventurous etc etc, not be limited in doing things in life that call them. What do they have in them that decides all this?
Are some people unafraid of both knowing and unknown and do it anyway? It feels to me that when we push the bounds of self we are still contending with a whole host of elements that come into the picture of the unknown around us, so of course if you are aware of them, and you cant do anything to change them and still do it anyway, are you just being idiot.. or is that just the luck of the draw and meeting all elements and your adventurous self as one come together perfectly? I mean I am talking extreme sports and crazy stunt type experiences. What creates this in people to defy (at times )natures elements and themselves to the extreme and still are ok and get by? Is it luck? Or do they know they can do it somewhere in their own mind and know that nature supports them anyway? Or is it more they just don't care about the consequences? And will do it anyway?
When your aware of more it seems harder to break through what you know and be a daredevil? Living in fear was probably far safer, because I wouldn't even look and be aware like I am now.
Being less informed, and afraid, made it impossible, but being more informed and less afraid, seems to make it more impossible, if that makes sense.
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Sounds like you've sized it up very well but in some of your instances there's almost a confusion between fear and lassitude.
"Meaning if I am quite comfortable and not afraid, but just don't want to do it, does this mean I am afraid, unable to be fearless, or am I still afraid."
"Are some people unafraid of both knowing and unknown and do it anyway?"This is where it comes to a mix of courage, of determination and the practicalities. Sometimes one "bites the bullet" - there are unknowns but one conditions oneself not to fear because (to quote some American politician!!) they are known unknowns. Like whenever I tender for a new assignment of work for a new client I'm somewhat apprehensive (hoping to strike up the right accord) but I have to do it fearlessly. What's the worst outcome? I don't get the job.
As we develop we become more sensitive to the unknowns around us but we still have to carve a way through which doesn't make us idiots (well, it might, me - perhaps I am...oh dear, my spiritual path hasn't led me there, has it!?). To me, the idiot is someone who doesn't recognise there are unknowns, or who knows they're there but pretends they don't matter. So he (LOL I use the word "he" strategically) will be guilty of unforseen consequences resulting from his actions!
The more sensitive person is more aware of the unknowns and will probably try to reify or objectify them, to consider their effect in the equation. Whether we then act depends on the exigencies of our situations. Sometimes in spite of the unknowns we can rest on our residual judgement to remind us that we're safe enough - particularly on exploring our inner worlds.
But going back to your original point, I don't think whichever way we define or cope with "fear" in its general sense, limits aren't imposed on our minds as such, just on decisions we take (and consequent actions) given its endless scope. I could be wrong but I see the mind as infinite but we put bounds selectively around areas that come into focus when we encounter situations, have to create things, etc.
And here's hoping you're having a pleasant Easter. It's teeing with rain here as ever.
Well, I'm glad you didn't put me on your ignore list. You certainly wake up what's left of my brain!!
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27-03-2016, 11:32 AM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: In my cocoon.
Posts: 6,653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorelyen
Sounds like you've sized it up very well but in some of your instances there's almost a confusion between fear and lassitude.
"Meaning if I am quite comfortable and not afraid, but just don't want to do it, does this mean I am afraid, unable to be fearless, or am I still afraid."
"Are some people unafraid of both knowing and unknown and do it anyway?"This is where it comes to a mix of courage, of determination and the practicalities. Sometimes one "bites the bullet" - there are unknowns but one conditions oneself not to fear because (to quote some American politician!!) they are known unknowns. Like whenever I tender for a new assignment of work for a new client I'm somewhat apprehensive (hoping to strike up the right accord) but I have to do it fearlessly. What's the worst outcome? I don't get the job.
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Quote:
As we develop we become more sensitive to the unknowns around us but we still have to carve a way through which doesn't make us idiots (well, it might, me - perhaps I am...oh dear, my spiritual path hasn't led me there, has it!?). To me, the idiot is someone who doesn't recognise there are unknowns, or who knows they're there but pretends they don't matter. So he (LOL I use the word "he" strategically) will be guilty of unforseen consequences resulting from his actions!
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lol to the he. I wont take offense. Many reference god as he so..lol..I think this relates to being open in everyway and being open to allow my full hsp traits to feel more as my own feelings, not let my mind trap me into believing that I am still caught up in the old ways of others and my sensitivity..
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The more sensitive person is more aware of the unknowns and will probably try to reify or objectify them, to consider their effect in the equation. Whether we then act depends on the exigencies of our situations. Sometimes in spite of the unknowns we can rest on our residual judgement to remind us that we're safe enough - particularly on exploring our inner worlds.
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Yes their is that. It is the sensitivity that tends to claim the moment. Meaning, that with my own heightened state in being an extremely highly sensitive person, I tend to tune into the sensations long before I have actually immersed in the experience myself, meaning that life and others in their experience has in the past become my own in everyway, of my sensitivity. And holding fear as one, you can imagine the mix. So in some ways after reading your words I am wondering if this is residual old awareness of sensations in knowing from the past, coming into the present moment which doesn't really feel locked in like in the past, but its there in some form.
I am beginning to feel more fearless, wanting to immerse into experiences I might not have, in the past, but the old fear memory and feelings are tied in, is catching me, creating some confusion in me around moving forward and allowing myself to enter into it. And I am speaking more in the doing of experiences, not so much how I feel within, I don't feel confined in knowing or awareness, more in the doing with old awareness of sensations. Its actually stepping into it fully in the whole experience again and letting go of old awareness in sensation of knowing and allowing it to actually be what it is as my own, not what I have felt as a sensitive of others in every way. So again what arises is trust in myself and my own experience and building my own safety net as required and not let the old knowing in feeling others and fear interfere.
Sorry if this is a little mixed up, I am trying to unravel myself that is a little confused in all this. But your sharing is helping so thankyou.
It reminds me of a ling in the song, Explosions, "Its ok to be afraid, it will never be the same"
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But going back to your original point, I don't think whichever way we define or cope with "fear" in its general sense, limits aren't imposed on our minds as such, just on decisions we take (and consequent actions) given its endless scope. I could be wrong but I see the mind as infinite but we put bounds selectively around areas that come into focus when we encounter situations, have to create things, etc.
And here's hoping you're having a pleasant Easter. It's teeing with rain here as ever.
Well, I'm glad you didn't put me on your ignore list. You certainly wake up what's left of my brain!!
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Yes your right, the mind remembers and creates the binds in memory, but interestingly it doesn't feel like a bind in me, more nothing, but a step if that makes sense, to reach in me that will release myself more complete by just engaging and allowing the experience to build a new feeling that is my own, not what I have taken on through others in the past.
Thankyou, re Easter, its a big celebration in my town here, so we have been out and about doing a few local exhibits, (photography) music etc.. Weather was perfect, sunny and warm. (sorry lol )
Have fun whatever your planning.
I don't think I have anyone on my ignore list actually..haha.
__________________
“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville
Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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27-03-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by naturesflow
lol to the he. I wont take offense. Many reference god as he so..lol..
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And just look at what he invented!
.....
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27-03-2016, 12:07 PM
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Master
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: In my cocoon.
Posts: 6,653
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[quote]
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Originally Posted by Mr Interesting
Honestly when I think of fearlessness I kind of think of stupidity but then I give myself a few moments and what comes to mind is a soft fearlessness and a hard fearlessness which of the two I prefer the softer version.
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Ok this makes sense. One feels like it pushes hard up against limitations, and the other is open to being fearless but with awareness.
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The hard one isn't about there being no fear so much as contesting what that fear is and possibly pushing it aside almost regardless and that just strikes me as somewhat stupid but at the same time I know I was very much like that in the past almost as if by being fearless I could get some strength of being together to balance off and surmount what was a cache of restless fear within me.
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Yes that makes sense. When you say restless fear, what do you mean? I think I am beginning to feel this in some regard, but the awareness is their with it and it is kind of like which way do I go in all this. I think for me I am learning to recognise what it is to be without fear, yet everything is kind of mixing itself up and I am unsure what I am suppose to feel. lol. Its strange, but then for me not being in the old state of being, I am actually learning how it is to live fully open and feeling anew in everyway.
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But a soft fearlessness is something altogether different and is more about just simply realising that some stuff we might do is dangerous to our physical body and so whilst we still might want to actually do something we simply consider the dangers and so it is a fearlessness that sits much more comfortably, as it were, within itself as not being driven by a pool of what might be subconscious fears.
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Yes that makes sense.
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For some reason then a quote yesterday I found of Einstein's seem to have a bearing and it was "Clever people find problems and solve them whilst wise people just avoid the problem'. So this idea of mine is that this hard fearless kind of braves fears and surmounts them in a kind of contest to find a balance which in turn might lead to the wisdom of a soft fearlessness which simply just either goes around the bravery without needing such to exist as a peg in the ground and simply acheives whatever might want acheiving with the minimum of effort and no need for dramatics.
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This is it. This is what I am aiming for.
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And fearful... quite the hopeful word actually because it somehow isolates the fear especially in a personal sense as in if we look to another and say they are fearful it's usually that they don't know it but we can see it but when we see ourselves as fearful it's as a conscious isolation as in we can feel fear but also in taking notice of the feeling also be somewhat aware that it's not actually us.
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Yeah that is true. In some ways, I suppose its doing away with fearful and replacing it with in fear and acknowledging the feeling and sensation, without telling myself I am actually fearing. Just feeling what arises as it will moving through the experience.
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Actually I think what I feel as fear is that adrenalin buzz when we come close to having an accident of some sort and for me I most often feel it when I'm driving and my mind wanders and so, but not very often, I am pulled back to reality by some close shave and my body feels that as a sudden jolt within adrenalin activating and I sit, as it were, on the residual feelings of having possibly come close to death and injury...
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I suppose it becomes more like a survival mechanism in self, but potentially its a feeling that can move you to wake up and be more focused and attentive to ones surroundings. I have this kangaroo that keeps coming to my bedroom window during the night, I seem to wake up and look out and their he is. I just observe him and watch how he immerses into feeding on the grass out there, but he also listens and observes his environment around him in the dark. He cant see me watching, but its been really good awareness for me in being present, focused and aware but immersed. I think in the old ways of fear, I was on constant alert and then of course I then couldn't immerse and enjoy the experience, because the fear keeps you separate from the totality of the moment, so you miss out. I guess now I don't want to miss out on whatever the experience may bring to me anew..
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Which, again honestly, very occasionally I feel the same way almost psychically and feel a kind of rush through me when some tangle of thoughts might form a coherence and come rushing up as a psychic sense of fear and they are so few and far between these days that I take notice almost more surprised than actually fearful... it kinda feels fearful on the edges but overall is more a hint to be more aware, a reminder of sorts to pull ones socks up...
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yes that makes sense. Understanding now what it is like to actually be aware, not necessarily fear itself. So maybe I am getting used to a new way of being that closely resembles fear but maybe not actually be that completely..
__________________
“God’s one and only voice are Silence.” ~ Herman Melville
Man has learned how to challenge both Nature and art to become the incitements to vice! His very cups he has delighted to engrave with libidinous subjects, and he takes pleasure in drinking from vessels of obscene form! Pliny the Elder
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27-03-2016, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
Yes their is that. It is the sensitivity that tends to claim the moment. Meaning, that with my own heightened state in being an extremely highly sensitive person, I tend to tune into the sensations long before I have actually immersed in the experience myself, meaning that life and others in their experience has in the past become my own in everyway, of my sensitivity. And holding fear as one, you can imagine the mix. So in some ways after reading your words I am wondering if this is residual old awareness of sensations in knowing from the past, coming into the present moment which doesn't really feel locked in like in the past, but its there in some form.
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I'm going to have to ponder this one separately. Perhaps my mind is more limited than I thought!
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Sorry if this is a little mixed up, I am trying to unravel myself that is a little confused in all this. But your sharing is helping so thankyou.
It reminds me of a ling in the song, Explosions, "Its ok to be afraid, it will never be the same"
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Thank you likewise, but I hope the "sharing" isn't aggravating confusion. (Be it known that I'm in the same situation!) When reading some of your propositions I'm worried that I can't see quite where the quicksand starts but brave myself! I think it's precisely this kind of exchange that makes us think deeper about some issues that tend to get brushed aside as unsolvable problems - what is fear? Why? Sometimes that helps rationalise them which may yield firmer foundations. (By rationalise, here, I mean within our internal "logic", not necessarily at the intellectual level.) Once more it's a problem with words. Describing the experiences is so difficult.
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Yes your right, the mind remembers and creates the binds in memory, but interestingly it doesn't feel like a bind in me, more nothing, but a step if that makes sense, to reach in me that will release myself more complete by just engaging and allowing the experience to build a new feeling that is my own, not what I have taken on through others in the past.
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which I can understand.
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Thankyou, re Easter, its a big celebration in my town here, so we have been out and about doing a few local exhibits, (photography) music etc.. Weather was perfect, sunny and warm. (sorry lol )
Have fun whatever your planning.
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Planning?! I shall take my little recorder to my parents to record more sounds in their rain lounge. It's a sun lounge except on bank holidays. So you engage in photography? That's one recreational pursuit to love or are you a professional?
Have a nice time once you've mailed me some sun and warmth.
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03-04-2016, 06:45 AM
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Master
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6,408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naturesflow
You have explained it all very well.
Being less informed, and afraid, made it impossible, but being more informed and less afraid, seems to make it more impossible, if that makes sense.
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I thought early on that breaking fear was like breaking the tie to some part of reality. Like a going away. I never was able to bring myself to try.
But it is not fun to be afraid either. To be fundamentally afraid, of everything, and still function reasonably within society is like lifting heavy weights and you just don't *want* to.
knowledge is also a hard topic. Without it you don't know what to do. But once you have it it clutters up the room and you can't see clearly.
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03-04-2016, 07:52 PM
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Master
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 3,797
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It was a few years ago now but I had lots of fun within a reasonably small group of people who met up every Monday evening and did experimental music and sounds. For me it was great, and I can't for the life of me remember how I financed myself, but for at least a coupla years I'd spend most of my time making these instruments and usually get them usable just an hour or two before the night of performance and figure out what 'range' of possibilities they might allow me then turn up at the place, put up my hand to play, then be in front of my peers doing it.
Okay go... and I'd be sitting within fear, all these eyes and ears directed at me and almost because it was all experimental and whatever came out came out I could go with that and just zone in on whatever sounds the other two performers might be making and let whatever I was feeling take over. Often times I'd feel really inadequate 'cause alot of these people were world class concert musicians who went on tours and all kinds of stuff like that but still I'd spent all week making whatever it is I thought might be interesting and sometimes whatever it was would work and I'd have this wonderous thing to play with even whilst I was always totally out of my depth and other times whatever I'd made just wouldn't end up being interesting at all but I'd still have to come up with something.
Anyway, it gave me a real good handle on what fear actually was and how it sit's in us... especially how it sits in me. I like how my curiousity and determination to experiment threw me out into a situation where I had to perform and how much fun it became even whilst I'd always still not like performing, yucky, the performance itself, as I'd be listening full on to what others were doing then adding what I felt was appropriate in gaps... which would become the defining moments for what was to define new gaps, was always fun.
Then just the other day I remembered when I went for a ride on brothers newly hotted Ducati years and years ago and I realised I couldn't possibly get anywhere near it's limits. Years before that I'd had my own big motorcycle and could ride it crazy as whereby it's and my limits were a quite wide line of discovery, a quite loud, raucous and even rude outpouring of possibility, as I raged through suburbia... but then the adrenalin buzz was almost too precocious, too dangerous, and I knew dying became a simple addition to the sum... so I sold it on.
One or two years later then I'm on another beast and I knew that acclimatisation physically and intuitively to riding that very fine line was gone, that it's an action that needs perseverance to get to, that time and effort will bring an acclimatisation to danger and adrenalin swilling...
I don't know at all really except I'm getting a lot friendlier with fear, it's a noble companion I'm less inclined to poke my tongue at.
I suppose the thing with fearless and and fearful comes down to expectations of self being proved somehow to either ourselves or towards others. That we go out and do things with fear prompting us, or reminding us during, or even hitting us afterwards, that we become aware of our abilities, or more so maybe, that we can have abilities.
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Once upon a time was, and was within the time, and through and around the time, the little seedling sown, was always and within, and the huge great tree grown.
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21-05-2016, 10:43 PM
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Suspended
Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 63
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There is an old saying that only fools are the ones that are fearless and it is the wise who know fear.
It is very accurate for the fools are often the ignorant and thus not knowing any better what do they have to fear?
Now many people have considered me fearless. I've done some pretty stupid reckless things over the years. I have also dealt with people who are dangerous to themselves and others - such as a kid who had just stabbed his step-father with a broken wine bottle and was holding his mother hostage with a Glock pistol.
I've also stood close enough to three wolves in the remote backwoods of Alberta, when hiking by myself, that if I had wanted to I could have stretched out my hand and patted the smallest of them. Was I scared? Frightened? For the few minutes they investigated my stuff hardly. They were really big doggies for they were as threatening as a fly really.
So am I fearless? I am not a fool. I know the potential risks and compensate for them but the only way such would stop me from doing something is if I'm actually dead.
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