what is bliss?

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Sounds pretty boring to me, like being a sweet-tooth I wouldn't want to live on a diet of condensed milk the whole time although a tinful might seem bliss.

In small quantities, bliss might be good. I'm happier with ecstasy.

If I do recal my mother reminded me of her childhood living on such things. That along with, bread and dripping. Eeek. Her family were so poor it was the only way for them at that time.

Life is like that though isn't it. The more ways we learn of how we are and how we are but don't need or want to be, we kind of fill our pockets up and tuck into what appeals to us more so for the future with knowing and feelings of how we can be. Often where we are or where we land in life, shows us the appeal and choice in how we can shift and shape ourselves into something beyond that point that we decide is more important in our experience than anything else we might have been exposed too.

When you tap into something that appeals to the nature of your being, naturally it opens a way of being that sustains and fills us up to get on with life. Considering the pain and suffering that most humans do endure at some point in their life, in some form, it makes sense that the "other side" of pain and suffering elevates one to a point of deeper awareness in feeling more alive and more energised beyond it in the way they need for them.

Your preference for you and your life as it is, shows what you prefer Lorelyen and ecstasy is a beautiful connection to elevate and show off your blooming beautiful self, being delightfully contented and happy within yourself as you..

My preference for me is that I am open to it all of myself and allow myself to experience myself as I am and learn I can be ongoing. The extreme's have taught me tempered balance of being. Neither up nor down, but a beautiful ongoing flow where I move more continuously alive and energised as a whole being through the stream of life.

I was contemplating recently the nature of how we live our life and I became aware I am connected to my world in so many ways, I have a lot of good friends and family, I live my life fully and engage in lots of ways. I realized that for me being more real suits this lifestyle, being more aware of others and life around me in this kind of exposure, makes me be more real. This allows me to see that the intermingling of energies and connections, through the many exchanges I participate in within my life and circle, allows me to express myself more complete as I know myself to be in so many ways of being me. I am a complex creature, I love all my complexities and abilities, it allows me to source everything within myself and everything outside myself that isn't defined by one aspect of me being me.

That makes me feel great, amazing and fully alive..

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by dryad

Hi Shivani. Yes I can see you too. The thing is if you want functionality you have to work on both enlightenment and strength. Enlightenment is only half of the picture. You can't do anything with it unless you have the strength to put it into practice. Its true that Gurus or true teachers will show up when your ready for them. Mine did about a year ago.

It is the usual way for the strength to happen first, before the enlightenment does.

However and in some cases, where Grace comes into play, the enlightenment happens irrespective of strength, and it is hoped that through that whole experience, one will gain it.

Then, of course, it also falls to Grace to place us in those situations whereby the self-realisation becomes applicable.

Enlightenment is only half the story - discipline or tapasya is the other half.

You see all of these religious swamis, medicants and spiritual seekers undergoing severe penance and austerities. It is not to attain enlightenment because that is the easy part, and the bet is, that they have already reached that exalted state.....but to maintain it; to allow it to strengthen their minds, hearts and bodies...that is what the discipline, the ritual and the penance is for.

[dryad]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

If you read what Gem said:

"I think the main thing is to be at peace, which means peace with all that has past, and is passing. That balance in the mind is disturbed by craving bliss, and wanting more. The ability to be aware without the personal reactivity means no one is resisting all that is in passing, as it appears to one's own conscious awareness. If a person starts to practice, they cease to do anything, and there is no mantra, visualisation, breath control and so on. By intentionally ceasing all doing a person can see how their mind's activity, and reactivity, is habitualised, and how these habitual resistances as well as pursuits are agitating the mind, making it unbalanced and unclear. This signifies a shift from self-becoming (becoming more spiritual and so forth) to self awareness (knowing what is going on with you). Then, because no one is interfering with all that passes, the old things that became stuck can start to come out, as nothing is resisting or obstructing them anymore. At some time in that process things become clear enough and the 'bliss' starts to bubble up, but one needs to understand the underlying skill of equanimity which enables this opening up, or they will continue to be stuck in craving more bliss.In this way, the first day novice is doing the exact same practice as the seasoned monk, and there is no 'more advanced' practice. People will practice all sorts of things like pranayama and mantra and so forth, trying to make stuff clear, trying to increase the free flow, but a more careful observation will reveal the aversion toward ones life obstacles, and their craving to more of the blissful sensation. Hence the practice is in that observation which has the characteristics of conscious awareness with stable equanimity."

As I said originally I agree with most of that. I am simply pointing out that there are more advanced things that become possible as one advances. Equanimity is great but it is simply a process. It is no more the be all and end all than bliss is. Its a skill.....to hold that balance enables other things to be done. Meditation leads to the skill of being able to hold focus and trance states for extended periods of time. Pranayama leads to the skill of energy management. Mantras leads to the skill of connecting to particular energies at will. Combining those skills and others is where things get interesting.

Comform / stronger fresher outlook / something of promise is on /
glad at appraised gift / order by comforting that makes everything up

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by dryad

As I said originally I agree with most of that. I am simply pointing out that there are more advanced things that become possible as one advances. Equanimity is great but it is simply a process. It is no more the be all and end all than bliss is. Its a skill.....to hold that balance enables other things to be done. Meditation leads to the skill of being able to hold focus and trance states for extended periods of time. Pranayama leads to the skill of energy management. Mantras leads to the skill of connecting to particular energies at will. Combining those skills and others is where things get interesting.

How do you determine advanced? Recently I observed someone moving through a whole range of process right to his core, firstly anger and rage that went on for ten fifteen minutes, then he was overcome with a deep peace, then followed a deeper blissful expansion and then he laughed out loud and felt clear.. He moved through it all in one go. So for me in being the witness to this experience as a supportive person, which part of that process is more advanced would you say?

He is becoming from all that as I see it, or would you pin point the bliss as the more advanced point?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

That makes sense.



Yes I understand. I imagine through the opening, that it would be easy to attach to certain points of your own process in the opening, believing that is the "most desirable" point, or a belief that it is the ultimate way of being in your body. Those attachments could well be held in quite obvious or more subtle unconscious patterns as I see it. We use it to serve ourselves until it no longer does. There is always more..

To me there is the sensation of the body, but no ideal way of being in it, so all I can suggest is knowing 'this is how it feels'.

The deeper awareness (for myself) is that the totality of your
"aliveness" is an integrative affect through a more inclusive self aware state of being. At the core of myself, I am at peace and all that moves from that point, is a changing movement of myself as one with life. I experience myself as I am as a whole complete person in peace. How I move and what I move as is really the 'engagement and expression of myself' in the ever changing moments of life as life moves me. I can be moved inwardly alone in a space of my own connection to myself, I can dance with myself aware of how I feel within in peace of being myself. When I am moved by a person on the street in need of some comfort and loving support, my comfort and loving support moves with them in peace. When I am laughing and having fun with my comedic friends my inner joy and fun loving self comes out of herself because I am at peace with myself in this way. The list goes on....

I still have to come out of my shell some more before I come to completion or wholeness, but there is a huge outpouring at the core of myself which I couldn't really explain.

For me personally, all that I experience becomes an integrated way of being open and alive to my own "vital energy" as you mentioned, as a source to use in so many ways of being in the world. The integration doesn't point to it being this or that or what I am being. In being, I am just being myself. I do believe that within the core of peace and equanimity of mind, there is the effortless flow of all those beautiful aspects of self we can be open to and aware we are and use in any way of our creative process as a part of life. When you make peace with yourself and life as it is, peace allows you to relax deeper into your true nature effortlessly. For me it is all those aspects that flow through effortlessly as part of my true nature, that allow me to have peace of mind, deeper connection to others and life. There is no desire or need to make myself be anything. I am just being me..

Yes I'm similar in that as best I can I have everything flowing right through, but I find my limitations at the extremes of it all.

And there in lays the abundance of your true nature, alive and reflected into life as you live it and engage with life. And of course there is always choice in who and what we engage with, which often reflects the containment or the openness we hold within towards ourselves and others. When your open fully to yourself as you are more complete, you understand the nature of yourself as the whole, not one thing, not two or four, but all of you. The song or dance your play through one, just means your using that for focus, which works..

Yes, it's not like I know myself as some sort of knowledge I can remember, but only in this moment I am aware.

BTW, Your Pm inbox is full.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

To me there is the sensation of the body, but no ideal way of being in it, so all I can suggest is knowing 'this is how it feels'.

Yes that is pretty much it.

I still have to come out of my shell some more before I come to completion or wholeness, but there is a huge outpouring at the core of myself which I couldn't really explain.

I consider myself a work in process with changes in my world ongoing, simply because I tend to look at life more directly as things are, so I move accordingly. I find more so now, I am learning how it feels to be in wholeness, which is a whole new way of being in the world. When your more clear and open as yourself, life moves differently within you compared to the old way, so sometimes I have to stop and remind myself, I am not the old person I once was and I am learning to notice how my true nature can be.

Yes I'm similar in that as best I can I have everything flowing right through, but I find my limitations at the extremes of it all.

Right now I seem to be walking through the extremes of others showing me how I manage such matters in myself. All in all I am holding up well. Being a predominate feeler and very empathic it can challenge my quest to stay more present, but all in all some of the more difficult situations of late are showing me how far I have come.

Yes, it's not like I know myself as some sort of knowledge I can remember, but only in this moment I am aware.

For sure. I feel that when you do let go of knowledge (as a point of focus) or a need to be focused a certain way within the streams of yourself being you, you tend to listen and can be more observant of yourself and others moving together. I said to someone last night in a group gathering, asking for feedback on our month to month process, that I would need to document myself ongoing to share what I walk through. Mainly because I tend to move through so much in myself to build balance, the story and the focus within the process fall away most naturally now. I find most often I don't even remember the details so much as how I feel when I come back to meet them. Again it comes back to peoples focus, within the process, where as I am more interested in just being myself out of process, if that makes sense.

BTW, Your Pm inbox is full.

Oh thankyou I didn't know.

[dryad]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

It is the usual way for the strength to happen first, before the enlightenment does.

However and in some cases, where Grace comes into play, the enlightenment happens irrespective of strength, and it is hoped that through that whole experience, one will gain it.

Then, of course, it also falls to Grace to place us in those situations whereby the self-realisation becomes applicable.

Enlightenment is only half the story - discipline or tapasya is the other half.

You see all of these religious swamis, medicants and spiritual seekers undergoing severe penance and austerities. It is not to attain enlightenment because that is the easy part, and the bet is, that they have already reached that exalted state.....but to maintain it; to allow it to strengthen their minds, hearts and bodies...that is what the discipline, the ritual and the penance is for.

Indeed things don't always happen in the usual way. I've seen a few people lately whose enlightement is several levels higher than their strength. The usual way however I would say is for both strength and enlightenment to progress in stages together. When you reach the maximum strength for your current state of awareness it is progressing to the next level of enlightenment that opens to door for further growth in strength by increasing your maximum capacity.

Relying on grace has its issues. It means that instead of enlightenment happening in a balanced way with cooperation from both sides (ego and soul) that the soul decides it wants progress in spite of the ego and effectively drags the ego along the path to spiritual progress. If done carefully that would be OK but not ideal as there is no development of control by the ego. The ego is given energies it cannot handle as it has not done the beginner training and built up gradually. This I think is one cause of the bliss actually. The intoxicating kind because the ego is overwhelmed by the energies it cannot handle.

But the extreme version is that the soul canibalizes the energy of the ego. It takes the mental energy of the ego and changes it into what it needs for spiritual growth. Same way the body will prioritise limited elements like taking calcium out of the bones if it is needed more elsewhere. This is unnecessary if the ego cooperates by contributing energy collected elsewhere. Guides try to help by giving energy but without the cooperation of the ego that energy dissipates leaving the soul with only one option. This is why building strength is important. Its for the soul not the ego.

I would think that all those austerities and purifications are to develop strength of will. To overcome the fickle wants of the body/mind. That's useful as a means to an end but discipline is not an end in itself.

I see three aspects that work in conjunction for true spiritual progress.... Enlightenment, strength, and training.

[dryad]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

How do you determine advanced? Recently I observed someone moving through a whole range of process right to his core, firstly anger and rage that went on for ten fifteen minutes, then he was overcome with a deep peace, then followed a deeper blissful expansion and then he laughed out loud and felt clear.. He moved through it all in one go. So for me in being the witness to this experience as a supportive person, which part of that process is more advanced would you say?

He is becoming from all that as I see it, or would you pin point the bliss as the more advanced point?

Well clearly my interpretations are not typical and that includes what is advanced and what is not. Advanced is comparative and can be applied to anything. The advanced practices. The advanced practitioner. Simply put it is something that was not possible at the earlier stage. Therefore advanced. Like you learn to do things in high school that are not possible for a kindergartner. It may be something perfectly average for the high schooler so not really advanced at that point. Then university studies would be considered advanced. There is after all always a next step.

From the example you gave I would say he has high potential to move through stages quickly like that. The bliss is irrelevant. Expansion is a key term. From the beginning.... Anger is a circular emotion. We feed it and keep it going. It doesn't matter how long the anger lasted because it is difficult to defuse properly. It could be hours days even years and never move beyond it. Or you can release it in seconds. Key is that he did release it not just suppressed it again. Shown by the deep peace because suppressed anger comes with a certain tension. Releasing that tension gives peace. If it was previously suppressed anger that was released it would have opened up a lot of empty space as well. That space makes it easier to see ones true nature (can't see when its crowded). If you think of the ego as a bubble that tension maintains the boundary of the bubble. By releasing the tension/anger you become aware of the boundary and it weakens somewhat. In that deep peace you become aware of the soul which is outside of your ego bubble (or possibly pulled out by the soul). The expansion was jumping the boundary. Blissful is just cos he's not used to it. Finding out you are so much more than you thought you were is reason to laugh. I have that same reaction. Clear is when you acclimatise to the soul energy and the bliss no longer blocks your perception of it.

So all of it is part of a process of enlightenment. First step or temporary illumination probably. Note I said he jumped the boundary. As you progress it becomes easier to jump that boundary at will. In both directions too. The ego self can jump outside its bubble. The soul self can also jump into the bubble. With further progress the two selves merge. Then eventually the boundary itself disappears. There is still inside and outside the bubble but you can't find the dividing line anymore its just a gradual shift. That's how it happened for me but the process can be different. End result is the barrier dissapears in whatever way works for that person. My experience was gradual over two or three years and had a lot of ego involvement in the process so I saw it in a series of steps and how I contributed to that. Not to say it was all me though. There was a lot of involvement from the soul side of the bubble too.

So what you call advanced depends where you are along that process. As I said elsewhere enlightement (as i have described it here) is only one of three core elements. Enlightenment enables strength to be built. Enlightenment is what stabilises the strength you have and gives you the knowledge to be able to use it. Third is training. Developing the skills and the perception to use the strength you have. All three of these should ideally be developed together as one harmonious process.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by dryad

Well clearly my interpretations are not typical and that includes what is advanced and what is not. Advanced is comparative and can be applied to anything. The advanced practices. The advanced practitioner. Simply put it is something that was not possible at the earlier stage. Therefore advanced. Like you learn to do things in high school that are not possible for a kindergartner. It may be something perfectly average for the high schooler so not really advanced at that point. Then university studies would be considered advanced. There is after all always a next step.

I get it. Thanks for explaining further.

From the example you gave I would say he has high potential to move through stages quickly like that. The bliss is irrelevant. Expansion is a key term. From the beginning.... Anger is a circular emotion. We feed it and keep it going. It doesn't matter how long the anger lasted because it is difficult to defuse properly. It could be hours days even years and never move beyond it. Or you can release it in seconds. Key is that he did release it not just suppressed it again. Shown by the deep peace because suppressed anger comes with a certain tension. Releasing that tension gives peace. If it was previously suppressed anger that was released it would have opened up a lot of empty space as well. That space makes it easier to see ones true nature (can't see when its crowded). If you think of the ego as a bubble that tension maintains the boundary of the bubble. By releasing the tension/anger you become aware of the boundary and it weakens somewhat. In that deep peace you become aware of the soul which is outside of your ego bubble (or possibly pulled out by the soul). The expansion was jumping the boundary. Blissful is just cos he's not used to it. Finding out you are so much more than you thought you were is reason to laugh. I have that same reaction. Clear is when you acclimatise to the soul energy and the bliss no longer blocks your perception of it.

Wow thankyou for that. It certainly puts a lot into perspective for me in relation to being present with someone going through this like he did. I now understand the soul energy awareness and what is happening for me on this side of things..

When you say blissful because he is not used to it, what creates this reaction in this way? I mean much of the process was all very spontaneous as the plug was unplugged..

So all of it is part of a process of enlightenment. First step or temporary illumination probably. Note I said he jumped the boundary. As you progress it becomes easier to jump that boundary at will. In both directions too. The ego self can jump outside its bubble. The soul self can also jump into the bubble. With further progress the two selves merge. Then eventually the boundary itself disappears. There is still inside and outside the bubble but you can't find the dividing line anymore its just a gradual shift.

Hmmm that makes sense. Once your aware you can jump the boundary as he has done, I see now what it offers for future awareness for him to merge himself. Thanks your insight has been helpful. I was informed by spirit that there will be nine more for me to support with this process. Not sure why numbers appeared to me while being present for him, but anyway it is what is and will be.

So what you call advanced depends where you are along that process. As I said elsewhere enlightement (as i have described it here) is only one of three core elements. Enlightenment enables strength to be built. Enlightenment is what stabilises the strength you have and gives you the knowledge to be able to use it. Third is training. Developing the skills and the perception to use the strength you have.

Yes I get it more aware now. Thankyou.