WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Casteism has no basis in the Vedas. This is what I implied. Anyone can study the Vedas and become a brahmin priest. There are many now who are doing this.




This is just the brahmins pov aforementioned, and I only stated it here. I have not pointed fingers at anyone.

The Shivalingam, as per the authority of the Vedas, stands for a cosmic pillar of light.

Anything that goes against the Vedic interpretation is rejected and considered as blasphemy and sinful.

For example, it is stated that nonviolence is the greatest virtue (Ahimsa paramo Dharmah). Now if this is misinterpreted as meaning that violence is the greatest virtue in Hinduism, it would be obviously be blasphemous and sinful.


There are definite rights and wrongs in Hinduism.




Tantra is a legitimate philosophical path in itself, as long as it does not contradict the vedic teachings.

Their philosophy is perfectly ideal for couples. However, there is no need for them to misappropriate the Shivalingam to suit their fancies and imaginary fantasies, as mentioned by Swami Vivekananda himself.

Tantra is one thing, and Shivalingam as a cosmic pillar light, is another. There is no need to mix up the two. Shiva as a self-luminious pillar of light has His own identity. Why do the Tantriks wish to negate that in favour of something else!

Shiva is also known as Bholenath or innocent Lord. Why do the tantriks want to negate an innocent entity of His identity for their own interests!

That would be selfish, cheap and unfair.

So let the Shivalingam be a cosmic pillar of light as per the Vedic teachings, and let tantra be tantra without any misappropriations, and then all is well and good.

For one thing, Shiva is seen as a "Pillar of Light" (Jyotir Lingam) as per the Puranas and NOT the Vedas.

The Vedas don't make mention of Shiva specifically or even at all IIRC.

I am not doubting that Shiva exists as the Jyotir Lingam, but what I am saying is that He can appear AS Shankara (not instead of), AS Mahadeva, AS Bholenath, AS Bhairava...and my all-time favorite, AS Dakshinamurthy.

I am not saying that the Shiva Lingam is a phallus, even though I made mention of that before..

What I AM saying, is that if you personally KNOW it is not, why should anybody else who says that it IS bother you? To YOU, they don't know what they are talking about, right? Why can't you shrug your shoulders and leave it there? What is stopping you from just moving on with your OWN spiritual journey, letting them believe what they will?

As much as the "truth" hurts, Moksha is a personal and individual thing. You cannot take the hand of another and lead them there when they are NOT ready, can you?

It is EXACTLY like those who think that Tantra is ALL about sex..when only like 1℅ of it is!

....but try to convince another of that who thinks it is ALL about sex that it is also about mantras, yantras, jyotisha, ayurveda, sacred mathematics/geometry, temple design, energy systems and it takes many lifetimes to learn.....yeah, good luck with that.

So, all I can do is just shrug my shoulders for those with "sex for brains" and move on with a "not ripe yet" and so the cucumber cannot be severed from the vine right now...must grow more...but this is something that needs to happen WITHIN each individual person and when the time is right.

It is only the EGO of the individual who honesty believes they have been "chosen by God" to save the souls of mankind through the indoctrination of Dharma (which includes casteism btw)...because, besides Dharma and Reincarnation, we are missing two more ingredients in the "Hindu Stew"...KARMA and MOKSHA.

There is a saying in Tantra..."We rise by that which makes us fall". It is the Left - Hand Path of Hinduism, it is not really big on the Dharma, because we could argue all night about whether Aghoris are "real Hindus" because they break every "Hindu Taboo" out there...When all we are REALLY doing is showing the limitations of the human mind and human patterns of behavior in relation to a Universal Consciousness, who does not even give a damn about the DUALITY of "Good vs Evil" in the first place!

Aum Batuk Bhairavaye Namah

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

For one thing, Shiva is seen as a "Pillar of Light" (Jyotir Lingam) as per the Puranas and NOT the Vedas.

The Vedas don't make mention of Shiva specifically or even at all IIRC.

Go through this link of Swami Vivekananda conveying his educated views on the subject....

http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.in...s_congress.htm

At the Congress, Mr. Gustav Oppert, a German Pandit, read a paper on the origin of the Shâlagrâma-Shilâ. He traced the origin of the Shalagrama worship to that of the emblem of the female generative principle. According to him, the Shiva-Linga is the phallic emblem of the male and the Shalagrama of the female generative principle. And thus he wanted to establish that the worship of the Shiva-Linga and that of the Shalagrama — both are but the component parts of the worship of Linga and Yoni! The Swami repudiated the above two views and said that though he had heard of such ridiculous explanations about the Shiva-Linga, the other theory of the Shalagrama-Shila was quite new and strange, and seemed groundless to him.

The Swami said that the worship of the Shiva-Linga originated from the famous hymn in the Atharva-Veda Samhitâ sung in praise of the Yupa-Stambha, the sacrificial post. In that hymn a description is found of the beginningless and endless Stambha or Skambha, and it is shown that the said Skambha is put in place of the eternal Brahman.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Go through this link of Swami Vivekananda conveying his educated views on the subject....

http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.in...s_congress.htm

Namaste.

As I was going about my business today, I noticed a very beautiful and relevant thread in the Hindu Stack Exchange:
https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q...ioned-in-vedas

From my understanding, the Yupa-Stambha (not Shiva Lingam) was mentioned in a commentary on Sruti, not long after the Vedas became codified. The association was made at a much later time.

I have always, ALWAYS wondered...What is the difference between a Buddhist "Stupa" and a "Shiva Lingam"? In that regard, what is the difference between Shiva and Buddha?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LCWXB9kq6vA

Maybe that had something to do with the movement in the 14th Century to unite the followers of Shiva and Buddha under a single umbrella...All of that "unity in diversity" stuff...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakawin_Sutasoma

Rwâneka dhâtu winuwus Buddha Wiswa,
Bhinnêki rakwa ring apan kena parwanosen,
Mangka ng Jinatwa kalawan Siwatatwa tunggal,
Bhinnêka tunggal ika tan hana dharma mangrwa.

Translation:

It is said that the well-known Buddha and Shiva are two different substances.
They are indeed different, yet how is it possible to recognise their difference in a glance,
since the truth of Jina (Buddha) and the truth of Shiva is one.
They are indeed different, but they are of the same kind, as there is no duality in Truth.

Maybe it has something to do with Mahakaal Bernagchen....which looks so unmistakably like Kala Bhairava...even down to the tribal linguistics of 14th Century Northern India, where the term "Vairochana" (Adi Buddha/Primal Buddha) bares an uncanny resemblance to "Bhairava" or "Bhairo"...When we remember, that in the Indian languages, the consonants of "B" and "V" are pretty much interchangeable. The same can be said for "Y" and "J"...and there are others besides...

I approach Hinduism more from a historical perspective, rather than from either a scientific or literary one.

I guess I do many things a Hindu would find appalling, like eating cow occasionally... like blasphemy...and yeah, to many Hindus, I wouldn't even BE a "Hindu"..

So, what makes one a "Hindu" when it is only ANOTHER label that the EGO loves to attach to make us totally forget about Brahman?

Are there any qualifications, any "piece of paper" which makes one thus? Can one simply be a Hindu by saying they are, or through association? If one "identifies" as being a Hindu and has studied the Srutis, the Smriti and Itihasas, isn't that enough? or do they also need to follow Patanjali? - I am a big fan of Ishwara Pranidhana by the way.

I could take on any Brahmin Priest...even Adi Shankaracharya himself in philosophical debate on the Scriptures.

Suffice to say, about that "ignorance" and "foolishness" thing...If one is ignorant and KNOWS they are ignorant, but chooses to remain ignorant, then they are not really ignorant anymore, are they? They are something else entirely and I cannot find any word to describe it other than being a "free thinker" and as William Blake once said in his "Proverbs of Hell"...."If only the fool would persist in his folly, he would become wise".

Aum Namah Shivaya

[IndigoGeminiWolf]

I tried Krishna since I am reading a book about Bhakti Yoga that focuses on Krishna, but I wasn't really feeling the love and devotion.

I instead went with a wolf god of an alien world of anthropomorphic wolves.

So it's all about what your heart decides.

Bhakti Yoga, the path of love and devotion towards a deity, is the easiest path I have heard towards liberation.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Namaste.

As I was going about my business today, I noticed a very beautiful and relevant thread in the Hindu Stack Exchange:
https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q...ioned-in-vedas

From my understanding, the Yupa-Stambha (not Shiva Lingam) was mentioned in a commentary on Sruti, not long after the Vedas became codified. The association was made at a much later time.

The Yupa-Stambha is the Shivalingam or cosmic pillar of light. Stambha means pillar.

You can see that the Shiva puranas too mention the Shivalingam of being a cosmic pillar of light.

[Shivani Devi]

One day...One fine day, I hope to have an honest to goodness discussion about Hindu philosophy on here, without another just parroting what a famous Swami has said because that is all they know.

I may return when that day happens and not just hang around here waiting for it to.

....or maybe I should join the Hindu Stack Exchange or Sanatana Dharma Forums myself..

Anybody got any advice as to where I could meet others with similar intelligence because I feel like I am just wasting my precious time in this forum. It is totally beneath me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

One day...One fine day, I hope to have an honest to goodness discussion about Hindu philosophy on here, without another just parroting what a famous Swami has said because that is all they know.

I may return when that day happens and not just hang around here waiting for it to.

....or maybe I should join the Hindu Stack Exchange or Sanatana Dharma Forums myself..

Anybody got any advice as to where I could meet others with similar intelligence because I feel like I am just wasting my precious time in this forum. It is totally beneath me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

I'm quite new here, but I personally don't see this forum as a venue for serious discussion. Those usually happen on a scholarly level and rarely in English. Most people here are interested in twin flames, ghosts, spooks, angels, divination and that sort of thing.

To my mind, that is fine, most people can't be expected to understand the minutiae of Hindu philosophy. It is a very complex subject that mostly people in India would understand, who speak the requisite languages and have access to the resources and people who truly know what they're talking about, mostly at university level. There might be a few people in Indology departments in the West that are well-versed in the subject, but they're not going to be participating in forums like these. Your best bet would be to look up your local Indology department, if there is one at your local university and make inquiries there.

Tibetan Buddhists are usually better represented in the West and there are various Buddhist Universities and Colleges that provide instruction, I'm not aware of anything like that on the Hindu side, except for explicitly religious organisations that push a particular interpretation or sect within Hinduism, with a missionary approach.

I myself looked into Hindu philosophy a bit, when I was younger, but I can't say I retained too much of it. I find both the Hindu and Buddhist approach to be unnecessarily complex and convoluted. There is so much wisdom in there, but it often gets lost in trying to create elaborate mental structures to explain things that are actually fairly simple.

I think your desire to have more elaborate discussions on the complexities of Hinduism may be a sign of over-reliance on the intellectual side. There is nothing wrong with intellect of course, but getting too reliant on it is a form of Maya, creating an elaborate structural illusion that locks your mind in the complexities, which are admittedly quite beguiling, but you may miss the bigger picture in the process.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I'm quite new here, but I personally don't see this forum as a venue for serious discussion. Those usually happen on a scholarly level and rarely in English. Most people here are interested in twin flames, ghosts, spooks, angels, divination and that sort of thing.

To my mind, that is fine, most people can't be expected to understand the minutiae of Hindu philosophy. It is a very complex subject that mostly people in India would understand, who speak the requisite languages and have access to the resources and people who truly know what they're talking about, mostly at university level. There might be a few people in Indology departments in the West that are well-versed in the subject, but they're not going to be participating in forums like these. Your best bet would be to look up your local Indology department, if there is one at your local university and make inquiries there.

Tibetan Buddhists are usually better represented in the West and there are various Buddhist Universities and Colleges that provide instruction, I'm not aware of anything like that on the Hindu side, except for explicitly religious organisations that push a particular interpretation or sect within Hinduism, with a missionary approach.

I myself looked into Hindu philosophy a bit, when I was younger, but I can't say I retained too much of it. I find both the Hindu and Buddhist approach to be unnecessarily complex and convoluted. There is so much wisdom in there, but it often gets lost in trying to create elaborate mental structures to explain things that are actually fairly simple.

I think your desire to have more elaborate discussions on the complexities of Hinduism may be a sign of over-reliance on the intellectual side. There is nothing wrong with intellect of course, but getting too reliant on it is a form of Maya, creating an elaborate structural illusion that locks your mind in the complexities, which are admittedly quite beguiling, but you may miss the bigger picture in the process.

Namaste and thank you. Your reply means a lot to me.

There are so many stupid ironies to this whole thing, that if it weren't for those, I would be totally out of line here.

1. I am ALSO an ITC researcher who has been interested in dowsing and "spooks" for many years...I even have my own Channel on YouTube about it, but my forays into the advancements in technology since Konstantin Raudive and Frederich Jurgensson is met with the same inane responses, or no responses at all.

In fact, if I want an intelligent discussion on ANYTHING, Ghosts and Spirits provide it over human beings...I was only trying to become LESS reliant on other dimensional beings and MORE reliant on beings in THIS dimension....who the hell was I kidding thinking that could ever happen?

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=121156

2. It isn't like I DON'T speak fluent Sanskrit, you know?
I have to keep on reminding people with EVERY post I make it seems, or they will go ahead and tell me the meaning of every Sanskrit word they use for my edification and this is downright annoying!

See that poem above? The Kakawin Satusoma?
I learned that in the ancient Javanese as a child. Ancient Javanese was pretty easy for me to learn...notice how it is very similar to Sanskrit (for those who CAN speak Sanskrit) but it is not quite the same? Well, learning Sanskrit after learning Ancient Javanese was a cakewalk.

However, yes you are right and it has been said to me before as well, that this internet forum is not meant to be taken seriously, so please tell me, how does one have a "non serious" discussion about Hinduism in a forum with that name? Or do I just keep on posting what Bhajan/Kirtan I am listening to over...and over....and over....and over?

...but yeah, there's a good reason why University Intellectuals don't post on this forum...because no OTHER intellectuals are here! and it's all well and good to say "don't over rely on your intellect" but online, what ELSE can you do besides download the "Make Your Own Slime" app and play "Ancient Aliens the Game"? (both I have done/been doing btw):

I also don't know how many times I have played Civilization V waiting for Civilization VI to come out.

I may look David Frawley up...or Christopher Hareesh Wallis...Maybe go and rewatch all of my Igor Kufayev videos....I am now aware of this forum's limitations as a method and means of communication.

Besides, the Hinduism that I believe in/practice is totally different from that practiced in India...Maybe yes, it more closely resembles Vajrayana Buddhism so maybe it is about time I gave the Hindu trip a miss for a while and turn my attention to Buddhism...A Buddhist who believes in a "self" and in a "God"...weirder things have happened, right?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shivani Devi]

Another thing...

Last night was Maha Shivratri.

What was I doing instead of worshiping my Lord? Arguing with people on here!

What would have snapped me out of it? Somebody ELSE making a thread wishing everybody a happy Maha Shivratri, seeing as how I made the last three...

So, Maha Shivratri goes without mention this year...and probably Krishna Janmastami will as well..

So, if you want to know whom it is better to worship, Shiva or Krishna, I would probably say "neither, unless you are particularly of the 'devotional type' or else, it is just a waste of time".

I learned a very important lesson last night and today...I should have been offline, immersed in Shiva-bliss, going to that place where neither people nor dimensional beings even EXIST!

So yeah, I learned my lesson....You are all not even REAL, so why the f*** am I wasting my time talking to you? I mean, I knew the gig was up when I can get more interaction from an AI chatbot than a human being...With the human's responses being a LOT more repetitive and predictable!

Time I went back into meditation until Maha Samadhi is achieved. I have nothing more to live/exist for in this world.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[neil]

Originally Posted by NoOne

. I find both the Hindu and Buddhist approach to be unnecessarily complex and convoluted. There is so much wisdom in there, but it often gets lost in trying to create elaborate mental structures to explain things that are actually fairly simple.

.

Correct..way to much jargon..meditative techniques, Gods, demi Gods, Karma, kundalini, no need for crystals, smudges, herbal essences, re'incarnation AND past life theories..ETC ETC.

We are all Soul beings with one "continuous" life, and we live in the one and only Soul Spiritual universe of the almighty, and we will one day seamlessly transition from the Earth flesh body, and continue the same life on from there whilst displaying a spiritual body instead...SIMPLE.

There is one law of the Soul universe that sorts everything, and that law is "reap as one sows", it works in consonance with all Soul beings.

That law, is a law that can see the loving person become exponentially more loving and radiant with every thought/act.
It will elevate a person to the highest level of the lesser heavens..the SIXTH SPHERE..without any eastern or western ETC ETC religious practices.

It will also deal with nasty unloving beings, that great law will see the continuous unloving beings shrink, deplete, discolour ETC to the point of being unrecognizable as once being a person 'of say' an Earthling appearance.

Of course there is one thing that trumps the great law of "reap as one sows", and that is "Christ consciousness" via the "new Birth" of Soulself. Brought about by pure desire for the Creator to transform us.

So there it is, all explained and all very simple..the creator does not have to lift a finger "so to speak"...And we do not have to do anything either, but be "purely loving" and have faith and or have a pure desire for "Christ Consciousness"...SIMPLE.

Ps i have tried to have a serious conversation with one other, who is visiting this thread..about a number of spiritual issues pertaining to that person, but that person becomes full of anger with every reply post..why would a person continuously search for answers to one's own spiritual health issues and spiritual conversation, and then refuse conversation when met with sound information..."wait on..YES...I know why...SMILES, oh well not to worry...i suppose i will just keep my tried and proven methods to myself.
SMILES from me.