WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

[Shivani Devi]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/shiva

Why does even Swami Sivananda Saraswati describe Lord Shiva as the being that Ajay calls Shankar in his book "Lord Siva and His Worship?"

I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see you are unarmed.

This is all particularly boring... i prefer listening to bhajans over doing this.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I'm quite new here, but I personally don't see this forum as a venue for serious discussion. Those usually happen on a scholarly level and rarely in English. Most people here are interested in twin flames, ghosts, spooks, angels, divination and that sort of thing.

To my mind, that is fine, most people can't be expected to understand the minutiae of Hindu philosophy. It is a very complex subject that mostly people in India would understand, who speak the requisite languages and have access to the resources and people who truly know what they're talking about, mostly at university level. There might be a few people in Indology departments in the West that are well-versed in the subject, but they're not going to be participating in forums like these. Your best bet would be to look up your local Indology department, if there is one at your local university and make inquiries there.

Tibetan Buddhists are usually better represented in the West and there are various Buddhist Universities and Colleges that provide instruction, I'm not aware of anything like that on the Hindu side, except for explicitly religious organisations that push a particular interpretation or sect within Hinduism, with a missionary approach.

I myself looked into Hindu philosophy a bit, when I was younger, but I can't say I retained too much of it. I find both the Hindu and Buddhist approach to be unnecessarily complex and convoluted. There is so much wisdom in there, but it often gets lost in trying to create elaborate mental structures to explain things that are actually fairly simple.

I think your desire to have more elaborate discussions on the complexities of Hinduism may be a sign of over-reliance on the intellectual side. There is nothing wrong with intellect of course, but getting too reliant on it is a form of Maya, creating an elaborate structural illusion that locks your mind in the complexities, which are admittedly quite beguiling, but you may miss the bigger picture in the process.

I am revisiting this post.

If this whole thread is now read in context, you can plainly see my whole dilemma on this forum.

It is not that I am over relying on my intelligence, I would just like it if many others could just "make logical sense" when they engage me in discussion. I guess that I am more reliant on my God-given common sense than on my intelligence.

After which, I spend ages trying to work out whatever do I DO that ATTRACTS nescient people towards me like moths to a flame? I then rule out other things... Yes, maybe English is not their first language... Yes, maybe they are illiterate due to a lack of education, then I find out they have a "spiritual learning disability" when I try to educate them.

This really isn't about finding "more intelligent" people to talk to... It is about others EXPECTATIONS of me. They expect me to fully buy their brand of "spiritual merchandise" in the name of 'tolerance' and 'compassion' and then they become totally intolerant and uncompassionate themselves when I do not.

I can see right through the veil of ignorance my friend. I can read others' minds, understand their intentions through their choice of words and the way they are expressed... This allows me to plot and promulgate outcomes and I am never wrong! Not once has another human being ever done anything that I didn't already know they were going to do... NOT ONCE!

This goes beyond limited and local intelligence to the "knowledge of all things" and there have been countless times I have given others the benefit of the doubt... Others who have said to me; "you only THINK you know, but you don't know anything" ....they don't disappoint me in their predictable behaviour patterns EITHER!

It is like I am a "social commentator"..... Like a cosmic form of David Attenborough making a documentary on the human species as if they all were meerkats (a lot of similarities exist there by the way) and I have NEVER thought of myself as being "human" or even associated myself with the species... As I have NO discernable "human traits"... Well, maybe except for getting annoyed with how totally stupid and ridiculous other people can be... And, I have spent my whole life waiting for a human to break the stereotypical label... Before realising that they only live up to it and thus, the label is fully justified.

I have tried helping others, but they only want to be helped THEIR way, which I cannot provide and the teachings on Karma Yoga make no mention of this dilemma and dichotomy.

Anyway, that is enough for now, and apart from me saying two mantras "thanks, I'll consider it" and "I am happy you have found something that works for YOU" what else IS there in regards to communication with a being of the species?

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am revisiting this post.

If this whole thread is now read in context, you can plainly see my whole dilemma on this forum.

It is not that I am over relying on my intelligence, I would just like it if many others could just "make logical sense" when they engage me in discussion. I guess that I am more reliant on my God-given common sense than on my intelligence.

After which, I spend ages trying to work out whatever do I DO that ATTRACTS nescient people towards me like moths to a flame? I then rule out other things... Yes, maybe English is not their first language... Yes, maybe they are illiterate due to a lack of education, then I find out they have a "spiritual learning disability" when I try to educate them.

This really isn't about finding "more intelligent" people to talk to... It is about others EXPECTATIONS of me. They expect me to fully buy their brand of "spiritual merchandise" in the name of 'tolerance' and 'compassion' and then they become totally intolerant and uncompassionate themselves when I do not.

I can see right through the veil of ignorance my friend. I can read others' minds, understand their intentions through their choice of words and the way they are expressed... This allows me to plot and promulgate outcomes and I am never wrong! Not once has another human being ever done anything that I didn't already know they were going to do... NOT ONCE!

This goes beyond limited and local intelligence to the "knowledge of all things" and there have been countless times I have given others the benefit of the doubt... Others who have said to me; "you only THINK you know, but you don't know anything" ....they don't disappoint me in their predictable behaviour patterns EITHER!

It is like I am a "social commentator"..... Like a cosmic form of David Attenborough making a documentary on the human species as if they all were meerkats (a lot of similarities exist there by the way) and I have NEVER thought of myself as being "human" or even associated myself with the species... As I have NO discernable "human traits"... Well, maybe except for getting annoyed with how totally stupid and ridiculous other people can be... And, I have spent my whole life waiting for a human to break the stereotypical label... Before realising that they only live up to it and thus, the label is fully justified.

I have tried helping others, but they only want to be helped THEIR way, which I cannot provide and the teachings on Karma Yoga make no mention of this dilemma and dichotomy.

Anyway, that is enough for now, and apart from me saying two mantras "thanks, I'll consider it" and "I am happy you have found something that works for YOU" what else IS there in regards to communication with a being of the species?

I think the people you describe are religious types, in that they are inseparably wedded to a particular sect or movement even within their own religion. They are basically parrots, repeating what they've heard from someone slightly smarter and just above them in the hierarchy ad infinitum. It is useless to undertake debate with such people, their minds (and their hearts) are far too rigid to even try to understand someone else's perspective and train of thought. Such people do not find favour with the gods and their prayers go unanswered. Spiritually, they're as good as dead.

Only direct contact and connection with the divine leads to anywhere worthwhile in the spiritual sense. There are no hard-and-fast rules and rigid structures in the spirit world, or heaven in particular. It is all about personal connections and creating your own reality. Meditation and other spiritual practices are important, but ultimately it all takes place in the mind. How you structure and educate your own mind determines whether you can establish contact and find favour with a higher power. Ultimately, taking a cue from them, you can become "as the gods" yourself.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I have had a brief period last year where I was part of the Elohim collective consciousness. I channelled them every day, but the connection never really ceased and I was connected to their universal mind all the time. It made me feel like I could do anything, like the world was at my fingertips. I came down hard from that high and realised I wasn't ready for such an intense and all-consuming experience just yet. It was profound and moving, the collective voice of heaven in itself is so beautiful and harmonious, there really is nothing comparable in this world. There is a reason it is usually depicted as a choir of angels in art, that is really a very apt representation.

I am also helping others, but I do so without any attachments or expectations as to the outcome of my efforts. If it bothers you that people don't appreciate your efforts to help them, or misunderstand your intentions, you still need to grow a bit in that area and learn detachment.

Going back to the issue of ignorance, it is worth watching someone like Christopher Hitchens (RIP) disembowelling opponents in debates. He mostly did it to religious types, but no one was safe from his irrefutable logic and rationality. Even incredibly smart people were made to look like idiots when they came up against him. You can watch hitchslaps on youtube, they are all excellent. Socrates had a similar reputation and he was executed for his efforts. Truly great intellects don't come around that often and expecting a regular person to exhibit such extraordinary feats of the mind is always going to be unrealistic.

Gopi Krishna remarked actually, that Kundalini is the only biological mechanism known to man that can demonstrably and reliably turn an ordinary person into a genius. He co-founded the Kundalini Research Foundation with the great German Quantum Physicist Friedrich von Weizsacker, who, like his friend Heisenberg, was well-versed in Hindu philosophy and used inspiration from the Vedas and Upanishads to come up with some of the theories that form the basics of modern physics.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I think the people you describe are religious types, in that they are inseparably wedded to a particular sect or movement even within their own religion. They are basically parrots, repeating what they've heard from someone slightly smarter and just above them in the hierarchy ad infinitum. It is useless to undertake debate with such people, their minds (and their hearts) are far too rigid to even try to understand someone else's perspective and train of thought. Such people do not find favour with the gods and their prayers go unanswered. Spiritually, they're as good as dead.

Only direct contact and connection with the divine leads to anywhere worthwhile in the spiritual sense. There are no hard-and-fast rules and rigid structures in the spirit world, or heaven in particular. It is all about personal connections and creating your own reality. Meditation and other spiritual practices are important, but ultimately it all takes place in the mind. How you structure and educate your own mind determines whether you can establish contact and find favour with a higher power. Ultimately, taking a cue from them, you can become "as the gods" yourself.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I have had a brief period last year where I was part of the Elohim collective consciousness. I channelled them every day, but the connection never really ceased and I was connected to their universal mind all the time. It made me feel like I could do anything, like the world was at my fingertips. I came down hard from that high and realised I wasn't ready for such an intense and all-consuming experience just yet. It was profound and moving, the collective voice of heaven in itself is so beautiful and harmonious, there really is nothing comparable in this world. There is a reason it is usually depicted as a choir of angels in art, that is really a very apt representation.

I am also helping others, but I do so without any attachments or expectations as to the outcome of my efforts. If it bothers you that people don't appreciate your efforts to help them, or misunderstand your intentions, you still need to grow a bit in that area and learn detachment.

Going back to the issue of ignorance, it is worth watching someone like Christopher Hitchens (RIP) disembowelling opponents in debates. He mostly did it to religious types, but no one was safe from his irrefutable logic and rationality. Even incredibly smart people were made to look like idiots when they came up against him. You can watch hitchslaps on youtube, they are all excellent. Socrates had a similar reputation and he was executed for his efforts. Truly great intellects don't come around that often and expecting a regular person to exhibit such extraordinary feats of the mind is always going to be unrealistic.

Gopi Krishna remarked actually, that Kundalini is the only biological mechanism known to man that can demonstrably and reliably turn an ordinary person into a genius. He co-founded the Kundalini Research Foundation with the great German Quantum Physicist Friedrich von Weizsacker, who, like his friend Heisenberg, was well-versed in Hindu philosophy and used inspiration from the Vedas and Upanishads to come up with some of the theories that form the basics of modern physics.

Yes you and Gopi Krishna are both correct there.

I should just laugh more and pretend all of these jokes are funny... Like you said, this isn't a place where people are serious whatsoever.

I just need a break so I can build up my energetic tolerance levels again... This place drains me when it should be recharging me...alas, it doesn't.

Up until now, I have been keeping my ego in check (pretty much) ... However I KNOW that I am way better than this and it's time I keep what is below and beneath my level right there and not lower my standards to try to help them understand what they aren't meant to.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes you and Gopi Krishna are both correct there.

I should just laugh more and pretend all of these jokes are funny... Like you said, this isn't a place where people are serious whatsoever.

I just need a break so I can build up my energetic tolerance levels again... This place drains me when it should be recharging me...alas, it doesn't.

Up until now, I have been keeping my ego in check (pretty much) ... However I KNOW that I am way better than this and it's time I keep what is below and beneath my level right there and not lower my standards to try to help them understand what they aren't meant to.

I would disagree with you on that, but maybe it is because I have a teaching background and I'm used to dealing with small children. It is important to be patient with people and understand that not everyone is on the same level of spiritual development or intellectual advancement. Just because someone is still a child intellectually or spiritually speaking, does not mean that they don't deserve an explanation that they can understand on their level. That is why I always try to explain things in the simplest way and use as little jargon as possible.

Spiritually more advanced souls have a duty to help those that are less advanced, even if it can be draining and exasperating sometimes. Thankfully, the closer you are to Source, the simpler things become. Complexity is often a sign of needless intellectualising, an over-reliance on the Left-side of the Brain, which corresponds to the right hand, the Solar, the Male, Language, Structure, Logic and Rationality. That is why I consider needless obsession with the minutiae of various sects, religions and philosophies to be ultimately a trap for the mind and the Left-side of the brain in particular.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I would disagree with you on that, but maybe it is because I have a teaching background and I'm used to dealing with small children. It is important to be patient with people and understand that not everyone is on the same level of spiritual development or intellectual advancement. Just because someone is still a child intellectually or spiritually speaking, does not mean that they don't deserve an explanation that they can understand on their level. That is why I always try to explain things in the simplest way and use as little jargon as possible.

Spiritually more advanced souls have a duty to help those that are less advanced, even if it can be draining and exasperating sometimes. Thankfully, the closer you are to Source, the simpler things become. Complexity is often a sign of needless intellectualising, an over-reliance on the Left-side of the Brain, which corresponds to the right hand, the Solar, the Male, Language, Structure, Logic and Rationality. That is why I consider needless obsession with the minutiae of various sects, religions and philosophies to be ultimately a trap for the mind and the Left-side of the brain in particular.

If I could explain it all in such a way that a child could understand, trust me, I WOULD (I just don't have the mental capacity to be able to do that). However, me explaining things to people isn't really the issue either to be honest.

It is other people telling me things that I KNOW are totally untrue and a pack of lies, but I haven't been taught from my own spirituality how to deal with this. Do I try to educate them only for them to dig their heels in with adamant and stubborn resolution just LIKE a child does? Do I just ignore them? Tell them to pi$$ off? WHAT?

I am NOT a teacher... I don't have the experience nor the patience for it... Even though I will definitely call bulls*** whenever I see it... If God wanted me to instruct others and help people, He would have given me the ability to do so, without all of this fuss, botheration and rigmarole... So nope, that is not my purpose or destiny.

Maybe silence and isolation is... Maybe this is why monks go to the Himalayas and meditate in caves because it is the only way they can get any peace and quiet... Cut off from all human distraction and ignorance.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

If I could explain it in such a way that a child could understand, trust me, I would! However, me explaining things to people isn't really the issue either...

It is other people telling me things that I KNOW iare untrue and a pack of lies, but I haven't been taught from my own spirituality how to deal with that. Do I try and educate them, only for them to dig their heels in with adamant and stubborn resolution just LIKE a child? Do I just ignore them? Tell them to pi$$ off?

I am NOT a teacher... I don't have the experience or patience for it... Even though I will definitely call bulls*** when I see it... If God wanted me to instruct others, He would have given me the ability to do so, without all of this fuss and botheration... So nope, that is not my purpose or destiny.

Maybe silence and isolation is... Maybe this is why monks go to the Himalayas and meditate in caves because it is the only way they can get any peace... Cut off from all human distraction.

I don't know if that always works. It could be a temporary solution, sure, especially when you're just trying to figure things out. But, complete isolation is neither necessary, nor practical. We have to live in this world and participate in its affairs, if for nothing else, to maintain our bodies. Complete withdrawal from society is a popular thing in certain parts of the world, but it is also fundamentally a selfish act.

It is necessary for an enlightened soul to alleviate the suffering and ignorance of others. This, they can do by their mere presence. I am reminded of Yudhishthira in hell. When he was given the chance to return to heaven, after he saw the suffering of all and particularly his loved ones, he declined the opportunity. He realised that he radiated truth and justice from the very core of his soul and this provided relief to the wretched souls in that horrible place.

It is a bit like that with those that have already realised the Truth. It may not be particularly pleasant, but if you are truly selfless and loving, you will find it within yourself to disregard your own needs and wants for the benefit of others. That is in fact the Eternal Duty of every soul, or Sanatana Dharma in Sanskrit.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I don't know if that always works. It could be a temporary solution, sure, especially when you're just trying to figure things out. But, complete isolation is neither necessary, nor practical. We have to live in this world and participate in its affairs, if for nothing else, to maintain our bodies. Complete withdrawal from society is a popular thing in certain parts of the world, but it is also fundamentally a selfish act.

It is necessary for an enlightened soul to alleviate the suffering and ignorance of others. This, they can do by their mere presence. I am reminded of Yudhishthira in hell. When he was given the chance to return to heaven, after he saw the suffering of all and particularly his loved ones, he declined the opportunity. He realised that he radiated truth and justice from the very core of his soul and this provided relief to the wretched souls in that horrible place.

It is a bit like that with those that have already realised the Truth. It may not be particularly pleasant, but if you are truly selfless and loving, you will find it within yourself to disregard your own needs and wants for the benefit of others. That is in fact the Eternal Duty of every soul, or Sanatana Dharma in Sanskrit.

I don't understand enough about humanity or human nature to be of any assistance to the ignorant or those less fortunate... Nobody has ever given me the instruction book on "what it takes to be a human" when I took this birth.

I have more questions than answers and until those are satisfactorily resolved, my hands are tied.

For example, those who say they love me, but also say that I am ignorant, selfish, worthless, tell me to get lost and don't come back... "Oh, but never forget how much I love you!" What the hell is THAT all about? I can't say "if you truly loved me, you wouldn't say all those mean things" because what would I know about love? Absolutely nothing!

If a homeless man is on the street, shivering with cold... Saying he is cold and hungry... So you go to your car, give him a spare blanket that you have... Buy him a sandwich and coffee... And he throws it all back in your face with "I dont want this s***... Got any money?" well, even if I DID have money, I would not give it to him to buy alcohol or drugs... So am I "helping" this man or not?

I may be enlightened, spiritually advanced etc, but the actions of humankind has totally destroyed me and made me cold inside... I have been a welfare worker on the streets before... I have seen how people create their own suffering and misery on purpose just to get free handouts... Any compassion or love I ever felt for my fellow man was totally destroyed AGES ago... So when I "woke up", the only one I could direct that love towards was Lord Shiva... And it was reciprocated a millionfold.

Even now, nobody ever says a kind word to me... Tells me they truly care... Sends me love... All I get is "if you were really spiritual, you would not EXPECT to be loved" and that somehow equates to how I am not deserving of it... Either that, or I am not a spiritial person... I have not decided that one yet.

In fact, I have none of the stereotypical traits of an "awakened person"
EITHER... So for years, I thought I musn't be... For years I denied it because it wasn't all Light, love, rainbows, kittens and unicorn farts... I realised I was an Aghori... An enlightened soul who would curse and urinate on "stupid people" and yeah, can identify with that.

Being a Shiva devotee has SOME perks, in that we get the freedom to bend the social/ religious rules to suit our whim... And if others call us "selfish" then that is what THEY think or believe... It doesn't necessarily mean that we do (or have to)... Isn't the age of entitlement grand?

Aum Namah Shivaya

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I don't understand enough about humanity or human nature to be of any assistance to the ignorant or those less fortunate... Nobody has ever given me the instruction book on "what it takes to be a human" when I took this birth.

I have more questions than answers and until those are satisfactorily resolved, my hands are tied.

For example, those who say they love me, but also say that I am ignorant, selfish, worthless, tell me to get lost and don't come back... "Oh, but never forget how much I love you!" What the hell is THAT all about? I can't say "if you truly loved me, you wouldn't say all those mean things" because what would I know about love? Absolutely nothing!

If a homeless man is on the street, shivering with cold... Saying he is cold and hungry... So you go to your car, give him a spare blanket that you have... Buy him a sandwich and coffee... And he throws it all back in your face with "I dont want this s***... Got any money?" well, even if I DID have money, I would not give it to him to buy alcohol or drugs... So am I "helping" this man or not?

I may be enlightened, spiritually advanced etc, but the actions of humankind has totally destroyed me and made me cold inside... I have been a welfare worker on the streets before... I have seen how people create their own suffering and misery on purpose just to get free handouts... Any compassion or love I ever felt for my fellow man was totally destroyed AGES ago... So when I "woke up", the only one I could direct that love towards was Lord Shiva... And it was reciprocated a millionfold.

Even now, nobody ever says a kind word to me... Tells me they truly care... Sends me love... All I get is "if you were really spiritual, you would not EXPECT to be loved" and that somehow equates to how I am not deserving of it... Either that, or I am not a spiritial person... I have not decided that one yet.

In fact, I have none of the stereotypical traits of an "awakened person"
EITHER... So for years, I thought I musn't be... For years I denied it because it wasn't all Light, love, rainbows, kittens and unicorn farts... I realised I was an Aghori... An enlightened soul who would curse and urinate on "stupid people" and yeah, can identify with that.

Being a Shiva devotee has SOME perks, in that we get the freedom to bend the social/ religious rules to suit our whim... And if others call us "selfish" then that is what THEY think or believe... It doesn't necessarily mean that we do (or have to)... Isn't the age of entitlement grand?

Aum Namah Shivaya

Everyone has their own path to follow, it is important to follow your own heart and to make your own way in the world. Walking a unique path that is your own can bring considerable rewards, but it also has its downsides, in not having a community and group of like-minded people to rely on.

I know exactly how that feels and it is particularly difficult in a hyper-materialistic, godless western consumer society. Although I like to hide the truth even from myself and I often pretend that things are better than they actually are, just because I'm an optimist at heart, if I'm truthful, I can't ignore the fact that I live in a demonic society.

If that is the case, is it any wonder that I can't fit in? I do participate in it minimally, because you can't pay your bills with infinite, universal love, but really, there is very little satisfaction in it. Like you, I get along with the gods of heaven far more, than with the humans of earth.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by NoOne

Everyone has their own path to follow, it is important to follow your own heart and to make your own way in the world. Walking a unique path that is your own can bring considerable rewards, but it also has its downsides, in not having a community and group of like-minded people to rely on.

I know exactly how that feels and it is particularly difficult in a hyper-materialistic, godless western consumer society. Although I like to hide the truth even from myself and I often pretend that things are better than they actually are, just because I'm an optimist at heart, if I'm truthful, I can't ignore the fact that I live in a demonic society.

If that is the case, is it any wonder that I can't fit in? I do participate in it minimally, because you can't pay your bills with infinite, universal love, but really, there is very little satisfaction in it. Like you, I get along with the gods of heaven far more, than with the humans of earth.

This is why I like you and can relate to you.

I also get along with animals by the way... Big time! However, I am no St. Francis YET! ( I also know much, MUCH more than I could ever let on).

"Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace...."

I understand all about superposition... But that only applies to matters of the Spirit and not matters of the flesh. There is NO separation between "self" and "other" at the level of Atman, but at the level of mind, body, personality, ego, behaviour etc Duality and Maya is in FULL swing and unfortunately, we have to exist in Maya, make use of Maya to survive in this world for long enough to get our message across and living with this dichotomy and hypocrisy has been very troublesome for me.

"One cannot live by bread alone.." but bread is still needed.

As I am typing this, two of my neighbours are having a punch up on the street outside... Do I care? Not in the slightest because either one of them could have simply walked away but chose not to... May they kill each other.

Why did God give man free will?

However, you are also right. To follow my heart means to follow Lord Shiva.. To trust in Him that all of this will be remedied and to learn a new mantra "I will pray for your soul". 0nly the Lord can give the 'spiritually blind" eyes to see... Like Dhṛtarāṣṭra.

I am also WAY pleased that you know the story of Yudisthira! I don't meet many on here who actually know all of that stuff like I do.

Aum Namah Shivaya