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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #1  
Old 01-02-2019, 09:55 AM
OPVerma OPVerma is offline
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WHOM TO WORSHIP SHIVA or KRISHNA ?

THERE is a lot of animosity and debate among Hindus on the subject, largely due to ignorance. There is a similar thread running below in the name of Vaishnaism Vs Shaivism that I do not like as it divides. Though Shivani has argued well on socio economic differences I would like to highlight on some other aspects by connecting it with spiritual progress and by sharing my personal experiences.

In my childhood I was an ardent devotee of Shiva. I ate non veg, smoked sometimes marijuana, bluffed parents, did meditation, and studied well. Soon as I completed my degrees, Shiva stopped answering to my prayers and Krishna started fascinating me. I was parked alongside a new and incredible store house of knowledge known as Indian Scriptures. I gave up meditation, began to follow the strict rules of Krishna worship, and enjoyed devotional ecstasy day and night. There was nothing like it, wholesome vegetarian meals, Knowledge, security, enjoyment and victory over opponents all time any where.

So I repeat Shivani's words Vaishnism is "external path to God", while Shaivism is more an "internal path to God".

At present I worship Krishna whole time by distributing Knowledge and pray to Shiva to provide rest and controlled sex (in next birth ) that Krishna does not give.

I hope more Hindu devotees Shiva and Krishna/ Rama would come forward and share their experiences without undermining each other.
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  #2  
Old 01-02-2019, 01:16 PM
Vinayaka Vinayaka is offline
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Hinduism is vast. In my personal experience, only a very few denigrate other sects. Most, if they are a member of a sampradaya or sect at all, (and most aren't) simply say nothing. If they say anything, it's a non-judgemental comment like, 'Oh yeah, that's another whole group within Hinduism' Same for differing temples within a city. Most Hindus are secure enough not to make it ino some kind of silly competition. After all, we have so much in common.
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  #3  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:57 AM
OPVerma OPVerma is offline
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NOTHING is VAST (Including UNIVERSE and GOD) WHEN ONE ACQUIRES KNOWLEDGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinayaka
Hinduism is vast. In my personal experience, only a very few denigrate other sects. Most, if they are a member of a sampradaya or sect at all, (and most aren't) simply say nothing. If they say anything, it's a non-judgemental comment like, 'Oh yeah, that's another whole group within Hinduism' Same for differing temples within a city. Most Hindus are secure enough not to make it ino some kind of silly competition. After all, we have so much in common.

Though common people seldom discuss about Shiva or Krishna worship yet it is an important aspect of our life.

Hinduism is not vast, It could be summerised in two words
i. Truth-fullness and ii Karma.

One may walk throughout his life to understand earth but he would not achieve success. But if he studies geography and looks up at the world map on a piece of paper he would understand it properly. So Knowledge is the key.
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  #4  
Old 02-02-2019, 12:21 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OPVerma
THERE is a lot of animosity and debate among Hindus on the subject, largely due to ignorance. There is a similar thread running below in the name of Vaishnaism Vs Shaivism that I do not like as it divides. Though Shivani has argued well on socio economic differences I would like to highlight on some other aspects by connecting it with spiritual progress and by sharing my personal experiences.

In my childhood I was an ardent devotee of Shiva. I ate non veg, smoked sometimes marijuana, bluffed parents, did meditation, and studied well. Soon as I completed my degrees, Shiva stopped answering to my prayers and Krishna started fascinating me. I was parked alongside a new and incredible store house of knowledge known as Indian Scriptures. I gave up meditation, began to follow the strict rules of Krishna worship, and enjoyed devotional ecstasy day and night. There was nothing like it, wholesome vegetarian meals, Knowledge, security, enjoyment and victory over opponents all time any where.

So I repeat Shivani's words Vaishnism is "external path to God", while Shaivism is more an "internal path to God".

At present I worship Krishna whole time by distributing Knowledge and pray to Shiva to provide rest and controlled sex (in next birth ) that Krishna does not give.

I hope more Hindu devotees Shiva and Krishna/ Rama would come forward and share their experiences without undermining each other.
Namaste.

My response to that other thread in question, was based on a few things. Firstly, I have spent some time as a Gaudiya Vaishnava at ISKCON before becoming a Shaivite and my heart really had no say in the matter whatsoever.

Secondly, my response wasn't based as much around the socio-economic platform, as much as it was around the historical, cultural and tribal geographical platform.

For you see, the Aryans from the North were mainly Vaishnavas, while the Dravidians from the South were mostly Shaivite going back to the times predating the Chola Empire

The reason why there is such a similarly between Shaiva Siddhanta and Tamil Vaishnavism, is because around the 11th and 12th Centuries AD, Vishishtadvaita became popular, with personages like Ramanuja and Sambandhar, borrowing ideas off each other.

So, although the Aryans settled in the North, the Dravidians in the South, there was some intermixing and interbreeding...tribal Gods and customs became more widespread...and yet, the North became the general political and administrative centre for the whole of the subcontinent of Bharat...and they were of the Brahmin caste, who were descendents of the Vishnu worshiping Aryans.

Shaivism was pretty much relegated to being the "religion of the 'untouchables" and also to the Sikh minority of the time... while all of the law makers and the white collar people were Vaishnava Brahmins...It is ALL political!

Who you decide to worship...who becomes your Ishta Dewata is based on your heart...who do you love the most? Who do you feel the strongest attraction towards? Let that be your guide...There is NO difference in the end...only preference.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #5  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:36 AM
OPVerma OPVerma is offline
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WE NEED TO HAVE a HOLISTIC APPROACH TOWARDS SPIRITUALITY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
Namaste.

My response to that other thread in question, was based on a few things. Firstly, I have spent some time as a Gaudiya Vaishnava at ISKCON before becoming a Shaivite and my heart really had no say in the matter whatsoever.

Secondly, my response wasn't based as much around the socio-economic platform, as much as it was around the historical, cultural and tribal geographical platform.

For you see, the Aryans from the North were mainly Vaishnavas, while the Dravidians from the South were mostly Shaivite going back to the times predating the Chola Empire

The reason why there is such a similarly between Shaiva Siddhanta and Tamil Vaishnavism, is because around the 11th and 12th Centuries AD, Vishishtadvaita became popular, with personages like Ramanuja and Sambandhar, borrowing ideas off each other.

So, although the Aryans settled in the North, the Dravidians in the South, there was some intermixing and interbreeding...tribal Gods and customs became more widespread...and yet, the North became the general political and administrative centre for the whole of the subcontinent of Bharat...and they were of the Brahmin caste, who were descendents of the Vishnu worshiping Aryans.

Shaivism was pretty much relegated to being the "religion of the 'untouchables" and also to the Sikh minority of the time... while all of the law makers and the white collar people were Vaishnava Brahmins...It is ALL political!

Who you decide to worship...who becomes your Ishta Dewata is based on your heart...who do you love the most? Who do you feel the strongest attraction towards? Let that be your guide...There is NO difference in the end...only preference.

Aum Namah Shivaya


What you are referring is about the evolutionary history of Vaishnism and Shivaism. The choice of worshiping Shiva or Krishna depends upon the mental and physical status of the person. Shiva absorbs the tamasic tendencies (eg ignorance, indolence, ) that are hurdle in spiritual progress, and cleanse body and mind for advancement. Worshiping Krishna leads one towards active spirituality.

However, one should not only stick to these modes of worship throughout all his life but take to the practice of yoga of truthfulness ( or any other out of 12), acquisition of knowledge and cultivation of virtues for further advancement. This is the holistic approach to spirituality. You were disappointed with ISKCON as they were unable to provide you this.
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  #6  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:52 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OPVerma
What you are referring is about the evolutionary history of Vaishnism and Shivaism. The choice of worshiping Shiva or Krishna depends upon the mental and physical status of the person. Shiva absorbs the tamasic tendencies (eg ignorance, indolence, ) that are hurdle in spiritual progress, and cleanse body and mind for advancement. Worshiping Krishna leads one towards active spirituality.

However, one should not only stick to these modes of worship throughout all his life but take to the practice of yoga of truthfulness ( or any other out of 12), acquisition of knowledge and cultivation of virtues for further advancement. This is the holistic approach to spirituality. You were disappointed with ISKCON as they were unable to provide you this.
This is why I said in that other referenced thread that what I said was NOT up for discussion...even though here I am discussing it... simply because I KNOW what I know... others KNOW what they know and never the twain shall meet and so, if you have a way around that, I am all eyes.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #7  
Old 03-02-2019, 06:56 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OPVerma
THERE is a lot of animosity and debate among Hindus on the subject, largely due to ignorance. There is a similar thread running below in the name of Vaishnaism Vs Shaivism that I do not like as it divides. Though Shivani has argued well on socio economic differences I would like to highlight on some other aspects by connecting it with spiritual progress and by sharing my personal experiences.

In my childhood I was an ardent devotee of Shiva. I ate non veg, smoked sometimes marijuana, bluffed parents, did meditation, and studied well. Soon as I completed my degrees, Shiva stopped answering to my prayers and Krishna started fascinating me. I was parked alongside a new and incredible store house of knowledge known as Indian Scriptures. I gave up meditation, began to follow the strict rules of Krishna worship, and enjoyed devotional ecstasy day and night. There was nothing like it, wholesome vegetarian meals, Knowledge, security, enjoyment and victory over opponents all time any where.

So I repeat Shivani's words Vaishnism is "external path to God", while Shaivism is more an "internal path to God".

At present I worship Krishna whole time by distributing Knowledge and pray to Shiva to provide rest and controlled sex (in next birth ) that Krishna does not give.

I hope more Hindu devotees Shiva and Krishna/ Rama would come forward and share their experiences without undermining each other.


In ancient India there were only Shiva temples and Hindus worshipped the Shivaling. The excavation of ancient sites like Mohenjodaro and Harrappa have revealed many Shivalingams, but no statues or idols of other gods and goddesses.

Rama and Krishna themselves are seen worshipping the Shivalingam in the Ramayana and Mahabharatha respectively.

As per tradition, Rama is said to have built the Shiva temple in Rameshwaram. Shiva over there is known as Ramanathaswamy meaning ' Rama's Lord'. Rameshwaram, also stands for Rama's Eshwar, meaning 'Rama's God.'

Similarly, the famous Guruvayoor temple in south India have a tradition of first revering Lord Shiva in Mamiyoor Shiva temple nearby, and then revering Krishna. This can be understood to be so , because of Krishna's reverence for his Ishtadevata Shivalingam.

Similarly a trip to Tirupati at Venkateswara Temple ought to be followed by Sree Kalahasti Shiva temple , in order to finish the pilgrimage. The scriptures show Vishnu to be a devotee of Shivalingam and gaining his discus from Shivalingam after performing austerities.

The famous Padmanabhaswamy temple in Trivandrum also shows the Vishnu idol next to Shivalingam, showing Vishnu's devotion to Shiva.

In ancient India , the Shiva Lingam only was worshipped as Saguna Brahman, and Hindu religious master Sri Sri Ravi Shankar had stated that human idol worship in Hinduism started later on emulating Jain and Buddhist idols in their temples who created idols of Buddha and Mahavira for worship.



In the yogic philosophy, the Shivalinga as Saguna Brahman is considered the first form to arise when creation occurs, and also the last form before the dissolution of creation.

The Shivalingam is considered as a cosmic pillar of light as per the Vedas and Shaivite scriptures, and the Prajapita Brahmakumaris state it to be an incorporeal point of light.
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Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle
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  #8  
Old 03-02-2019, 07:25 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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During the excavations at Mojendro Daro, there were quite a few statues found representing a "Goddess form" and also, a clay seal was uncovered which bore the emblem of a horned Deity seated in Mulabhandasana, thought to represent a tribal God called Pashupati, who is believed to be the forerunner of the Shiva cults which followed and yes, quite a few Shivalingams were found also.

My source of reference for all of this is, of course, Alain Danielou - the erudite Shaivite scholar.

https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...on&redir_esc=y

However, some people will believe whatever they WANT to believe and just pick only those facts supporting that belief and totally discount all of the other facts because they do not want to believe it... especially seeing as how they mention the religious sect they are involved in...With EVERY post they make. Some pretty hard core indoctrination going on right there!

Don't worry...It is a very common human trait in the egoic need to be seen as being "right" all the time. Thank God I am over all of that.

Now, I shall be off for a few days watching lectures by my newfound Guru, Peter Marchand who is the disciple of Harish Johari.

Coming on SF is like participating in a kindergarten sandpit squabble over the shovel and bucket...It is annoying!

Watching my Guru immediately shows how the "big boys" play and it feels like a weight has been lifted off...There is instant relief!

Peter doesn't care if one worships either the Saguna or Nirguna form of Lord Shiva...As long as one DOES and with total unconditional love is the main thing, admitting that it is much easier for the mind to focus on the concrete rather than the abstract.

However, please get your historical data right and then get back to me.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #9  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:28 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
During the excavations at Mojendro Daro, there were quite a few statues found representing a "Goddess form" and also, a clay seal was uncovered which bore the emblem of a horned Deity seated in Mulabhandasana, thought to represent a tribal God called Pashupati, who is believed to be the forerunner of the Shiva cults which followed and yes, quite a few Shivalingams were found also.

There were relatively many Shivalingams found, as shown in the photographs. The other statues were rarely found, and it is not clear if they were even worshipped. No temples were found over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

My source of reference for all of this is, of course, Alain Danielou - the erudite Shaivite scholar.

The name itself denotes a foreigner , who obviously does not have a precise understanding of Hinduism as he was not brought up in India or in Hindu culture.

If you want an authentic source, you can take up Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, who was born a Brahmin and is an enlightened spiritual master for millions in India and all over the world.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar teaches and elaborates on the Shivalinga in this article of his...

https://www.artofliving.org/in-bn/wi...-qa-2?mobile=1

Quote:
'The other reason is that when Buddhists and Jains made their temples they would place such beautiful idols at the altar. So then those who followed Sanatan Dharma felt that they should also do something like this. So they also followed the same and began to establish different idols of Lord Vishnu, Lord Rama and Lord Krishna.

You will not find any mention of a practice of installing idols for worship in the Bhagavad Gita or the Ramayana.

Only the Shiva Linga was installed. That is why only the Shiva Linga was there in the ancient period, which was worshiped by Lord Krishna, Lord Rama and everyone else.' - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar






Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
However, please get your historical data right and then get back to me.

Aum Namah Shivaya

The data I have given of the link between Rama, Krishna and Vishnu to the Shivalingam is valid and can be fact checked by anyone.

In fact there are many more such sources in India.

Parashurama, the seventh avatar of Vishnu, is himself a devotee of Shiva and established famous temples for Shiva in India, especially in Kerala where he built 108 Shiva temples which are the most ancient and well-known temples there.
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Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. -- Eckhart Tolle
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  #10  
Old 03-02-2019, 08:46 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
There were relatively many Shivalingams found, as shown in the photographs. The other statues were rarely found, and it is not clear if they were even worshipped. No temples were found over there.



The name itself denotes a foreigner , who obviously does not have a precise understanding of Hinduism as he was not brought up in India or in Hindu culture.

If you want an authentic source, you can take up Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, who was born a Brahmin and is an enlightened spiritual master for millions in India and all over the world.

Sri Sri Ravi Shankar teaches and elaborates on the Shivalinga in this article of his...

https://www.artofliving.org/in-bn/wi...-qa-2?mobile=1









The data I have given of the link between Rama, Krishna and Vishnu to the Shivalingam is valid and can be fact checked by anyone.

In fact there are many more such sources in India.

Parashurama, the seventh avatar of Vishnu, is himself a devotee of Shiva and established famous temples for Shiva in India, especially in Kerala where he built 108 Shiva temples which are the most ancient and well=-known temples there.
My dear one, going by your definition, I am also a "foreigner" as I was born in Australia and not in India and therefore do not understand the "Hindu ways".

Do you know something? I love it when Native Hindus raise this issue with me because they CLEARLY set aside ALL notions of reincarnation and previous births and lifetimes to do so..they CLEARLY forget that the Atman has no caste, creed or nationality. They just make a case for the whole thing by saying: "you were not born in India so you can never understand Hinduism".

I was raised in Bali Indonesia and of COURSE I know all about the traditions surrounding the AGAMA Shastras.. you won't find any murthys of Deities in Bali either..Just Shiva Lingams...no statues of Shiva whatsoever... but what they DO have, is Dwarpalas...statues of temple guardians which represents the fierce form of Lord Shiva, Kala Bhairava.

Being raised in Bali as a BALINESE Hindu... without having any statues to pray to, not getting any joy out of worshiping the Shiva Lingam, I endeared myself to the Dwarpalas..I prayed to them and associated THEM with Lord Shiva..

....and that is how I became associated with the Yaksha Roopam of Lord Shiva and with the worship of Bhairava..who, as you may recall, emerged from that pillar of light to decapitate Lord Brahma.

Aum Namah Shivaya
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