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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #1  
Old 23-05-2018, 10:31 PM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 418
 
love, healthy separation, and the meaning of self-love

Scott Peck said in The Road Less Traveled, 'Love is separateness.'

The philosopher Soren Kierkegaard said that the more one sees another as an extension of themselves, the further they get from love. He said that one's spouse should be seen primarily as their 'neighbor,' rather than as something that's THEIRS, as something that 'belongs to them.'

When we see others as extensions of ourselves, we often mistreat them. Romantic partners often disrespect and attack each other. Parents often mistreat their own children in ways they'd never mistreat a child who isn't 'theirs.'

Most people with mental illnesses have this problem. They see others as extensions of themselves rather than as separate individuals. This lack of a healthy sense of separation may originate from poor brain health (the brain can function in a way that creates a lack of healthy separation), never having separated from one's mother, traumatic abuse in childhood, or lack of love (when the person just doesn't have much love in their heart).

It ultimately probably comes from a projection of one's relationship with THEMSELVES, and from a failure to sufficiently love oneself. Many people feel free to abuse and disrespect themselves because THEY'RE the ones doing it. But that's not self-love.

If you love yourself, then respect yourself, honor yourself. Don't feel free to attack yourself just because YOU'RE the one doing the attacking.
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  #2  
Old 24-05-2018, 12:42 AM
LiberatedLotus LiberatedLotus is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 211
 
As I honor their views, this entirely depends on what one
defines as an "Extension of ones self".

When one delves to the deepest states of being,
you'll come to understand the intimate
interconnectedness of all things & that
everything in the universe is an extension of yourself,
you are the universe. The universe is you. There is
no separation. There is oneness that masquerades
as a differential.

Now with that being said, yes, it is imperative
to honor that differential / soul / autonomy of another
& as one does & explores the deepest layers you'll
come to the same conclusion of it being a differential.

Romantic partners who are possessive &
consequently abusive do not have
the slightest understanding of the deepest
levels of oneness or they would never act
in such a manner. Nor would I say they have
a healthy & stable understanding of autonomy
/ the differential in relation to the workings
of the Universe.
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  #3  
Old 24-05-2018, 01:02 AM
LiberatedLotus LiberatedLotus is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 211
 
I would even postulate to say that with
the deepest awareness of being comes
the deepest understanding of another
& consequently the deepest love to emerge.
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  #4  
Old 24-05-2018, 04:08 AM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 418
 
I agree, it depends on what you mean by separation. Ultimately, we're all one.

I was talking about the fact that we're different forms, but as you noted, of the same universal.

Thanks for your posts because it's a very important clarification.
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  #5  
Old 24-05-2018, 04:24 AM
LiberatedLotus LiberatedLotus is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 211
 
You're welcome.

Based on my own experiences,
there is a major difference between
projections onto someone
else & deeply understanding another
& objectively stating truth
(rooted in empathic abilities)
that can be objectively verifiable.

So many times in life have I been
misunderstood for this very thing -
people projecting their own baggage
onto me without ever knowing me
for me . Failing to see & accept
objective truth because they
are incapable of seeing anything
outside themselves. That is where the
preverse "extension of oneself" is
formed.

"I only see hell, so hell must
only exist". " I have a history
of lying & using people. Other
people have lied & used
me so that must be the only thing
that exists". Then by default,
that is the only thing they see.
They will, by default, attract
this whilst destroying any
other possibility in the process.

It's a complete abomination
of genuine understanding.
Empathy.

Key to differenciating betweem the two,
is if the same person continues to use the
same descriptive language to describe
numerous people. You can start to see
patterns form. If you repeatedly have the
same problems with different people,
it is most ceetaintly rooted inside of you.
Especially when there is no fact, no
evidence to support such claims - that
are completely independent of any type
of influence.
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  #6  
Old 24-05-2018, 06:34 AM
Starman Starman is offline
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: U.S. Southwest
Posts: 2,658
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How we approach relationships with others has a lot to do with the relationship that we have with ourselves;
we give to others the work, or lack of work, that we have done on ourselves. We attract people into our lives
consciously, and most often unconsciously, by sending out a certain vibe, body language, or attitude.

Most people do mature in their relationship, if not very slowly. Everyone we encounter can be our teacher but
many do not learn the intrinsic value from past relationships, rather they recoil at the pain and hurt they may
have received from a bad breakup. Most people in closely held relationships are very insecure.

Just telling another person, “you belong to me,” or “you’re mine,” has a connotation of possession. We want to
be possessed by that person and we want to possess that person. This is a form of enmeshment, where each
person tries to get inside of the other person and there is no daylight between them.

In a healthy relationship, each person has their own friends and the other person is not jealous or envious of
those friends. It is healthy to give a person space in a relationship. It is difficult to truly give another person
love unless we first love ourselves. Although self-love is not narcissistic. It is akin to loving without an object
or person to love; to be in love with the life that we are regardless of our situation.

Love of self and others involves a growing process, as we move through stages of love, friendship, companionship,
romantic love, sexual love, committed love, unconditional love, etc. So there is this timeless debate; do you believe
in love at first sight? But regardless whether you believe in love at first sight or not, love is still a process, a journey.

A journey that requires patience with yourself and your mate. I know couples who enjoy taking separate vacations,
as well as taking vacations together. I think it is unfortunate that most people have hurtful bad breakups when their
relationship ends. Too many demands and expectations can ruin a relationship.

Most of what I share here I learned while working as a counselor, still that does not make it the gospel. Relationship
dynamics are basically emotional dynamics that are formed by the culture we inherited. Human relationships change
as a society changes. It might also be said that aspects of the relationships we have are inherited from our biological
parents. Again, a disclaimer, all that I have written here is theory.
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  #7  
Old 24-05-2018, 11:12 AM
Lorelyen
Posts: n/a
 
I have to accept this as a viable view for someone who has developed along this path but to me it assumes a lot and begs a few questions, if I might be so bold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
Scott Peck said in The Road Less Traveled, 'Love is separateness.'

The philosopher Soren Kierkegaard said that the more one sees another as an extension of themselves, the further they get from love. He said that one's spouse should be seen primarily as their 'neighbor,' rather than as something that's THEIRS, as something that 'belongs to them.'
Things have moved on a lot with developments in euroscience and acknowledgement of the "social brain" by what's so far known of the social synapse. There's much evidence to support the idea, e.g. mirror neurones. So, yes, it's fine to say that in some cases people see others as extensions of themselves but it depends on the interaction and what's commonly called "personality types." I've encountered confronters who are no way extensions of myself, sometimes forced upon my by things like business; or blokes whose agendas are, let's say, a little too transparent. Once you move beyond one-to-one encounters the idea doesn't work well - a group. However, for a few people the author's idea no doubt holds.

Quote:
When we see others as extensions of ourselves, we often mistreat them. Romantic partners often disrespect and attack each other. Parents often mistreat their own children in ways they'd never mistreat a child who isn't 'theirs.'
If that's the case for this author it's his way but isn't for me. Agreed about parents mistreating their children...sometimes....but I'd suggest that a special case as are bosses.

Quote:
Most people with mental illnesses have this problem. They see others as extensions of themselves rather than as separate individuals. This lack of a healthy sense of separation may originate from poor brain health (the brain can function in a way that creates a lack of healthy separation), never having separated from one's mother, traumatic abuse in childhood, or lack of love (when the person just doesn't have much love in their heart).

To me, a precarious supposition in many ways. It relies on definitions of mental illness and at what point ordinary discernment or rebellion becomes mental illness. The term itself is questionable. There are plenty of people on this forum with mental problems but we'd hesitate to declare them mentally ill. Is someone turning to a spiritual life, avoiding social conditional where possible mentally ill...? because they're "not normal"

One has to be careful bringing the brain into it. Is it a flawed brain - damaged? Or chemical problems? - or is it the data; experiences yielding responses that don't correspond with conditioned expectations. Attachment is a feature of the "old brain" the limbic system whereas rationalising against it happens in a different part.

Quote:
It ultimately probably comes from a projection of one's relationship with THEMSELVES, and from a failure to sufficiently love oneself. Many people feel free to abuse and disrespect themselves because THEY'RE the ones doing it. But that's not self-love.

If you love yourself, then respect yourself, honor yourself. Don't feel free to attack yourself just because YOU'RE the one doing the attacking.
I'm never at ease with "relationship with oneself." nor "loving yourself." Even finding out about yourself without delusion can be a right problem. What do they actually mean? It would suppose there are two parts (at least) to an individual, joined by a functional link that somehow informs and/or regulates what's going on in the other part.

Is it, in simpler terms, what one thinks of oneself (which may not align with what one actually is)? Namely delusion, however slight.

As someone who feels individuality paramount and tries not to interfere at all with an individual during interpersonal congress (nigh impossible but one can tread as lightly as possible), other people are experiences. A developed awareness avoids any "regarding people as an extension of themselves" which is rather closed-minded, the province of people whose public front (ego, if you like) has deluded them into believing they're the centre of the universe - self-centtred. The open-minded person may feel the same but recognises they're but one of many universes.

Hence I have trouble with this viewpoint.

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  #8  
Old 24-05-2018, 11:26 PM
happy soul happy soul is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 418
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, LiberatedLotus, Starman, and Lorelyen.

Nice connecting with you all.
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  #9  
Old 25-05-2018, 10:35 PM
Torgo Torgo is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 390
 
I find it easy to trust someone that I am in love with and love/care about. I want them to be happy and bring happiness to others, and vice versa. I do not want to "possess" them or sit around having my life revolve around them. I want them to feel free to be who they are just as I want to be free to be who I am. No double standards. So if/when we do meet up from time-to-time, it is completely magical, and every moment is savored as total bliss, no matter what is happening.

However, if there is very little intimacy or real love and honesty in a relationship, then it is not a real relationship, sadly. Being in an abusive relationship can turn what appears to be love into codependency and fear. Then it becomes self serving and even further away from true intimacy and love. I choose to reject those types of relationships now that I know better. They are nothing but vampiric in nature. Of course, then you set yourself up to be accused of being "jealous" when the abuser lies and goes astray.... Have to be cautious about this. Otherwise they will manipulate you into taking on their own projections.

"I'm not in love with you because you are abusive and lack intimacy, not because I'm jealous of your relationships with others."

Just some random thoughts about the topic at hand....
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  #10  
Old 26-05-2018, 12:37 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Posts: 10,861
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"When love beckons to you, follow him, though his ways are hard and steep. And when his wings enfold you, yield to him, though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him, though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden. For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you.

Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning. Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun, so shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself. He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks. He grinds you to whiteness. He kneads you until you are pliant; and then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure, then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself. Love possesses not nor would it be possessed, for love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, "I am in the heart of God. And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfill itself. But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy.
To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips" - Khalil Gibran
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