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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > General Religion

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  #71  
Old 18-06-2019, 06:53 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Hey 7L..
I find this interesting. The angels are operating from a different 'dimension' but I bet they are also trying to make sense of reality. My views on this particular topic most closely align with Buddhism and Jainism, in that the angels incarnate too. Perhaps some live in a specific form for many billions of years. They are immensely powerful and can be our guides. From our point of view some of these beings basically ARE gods/goddesses. They can help us and we worship and pray to them, but I don't think we can conclude that they are all-knowing, all-powerful Grand Architects of the universe..

As for this current *universe*... it could be that the universe never had a *true* beginning but merely recreates itself, meaning there's no true 'creation', only the perception of it.. matter/form continuously changing, so to me, there is no ''creation'' as in the biblical sense. I don't believe the universe ''began'' either. It is our desire for linearity and progress that makes us believe there is creation or any beginning, imo. But 'creation' is just change, as is evolution. We put the markers on them imagining they have 'beginnings', but this reality of change and form is all about verbs..

I didn't know that about Mandela, that people thought he was dead. Was there even a funeral? Could it have been a stunt by the white nationalists to make people think he was dead so there wouldn't be a fuss over the person Mandela..? I don't know. I've never heard about this before.


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  #72  
Old 19-06-2019, 05:11 AM
meetjazz meetjazz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair

Hi Meetjazz..

Simply put, no. I don't think anyone literally believes they are GOD. That would be a misunderstanding and application of the ''I AM'' stance. Save to say, anyone who doesn't believe the Highest Reality or 'GOD' is a ''person'' or a specific ''form'' can still worship, pray, or focus on other divine guidance. Why would there be a need for an overlord that is a specific person/form..?

Why do you deem it so important to view 'GOD' as a conscious, intelligent person and a specific form..?? There literally is no ''Creation'' in the religious sense or ''Intelligent design'' because how nature functions is not how an intelligent agent functions..





@Altair
I will post now a wider answer since you have ask me a very broad question. First of all, we need to define GOD in some way, if we talk about it. For this I will use a wonderful excerpt from Keepin, PhD, William. Belonging to God: Science, Spirituality & a Universal Path of Divine Love..and I'm not trying to sell a book;. He have put it like that:
Some people may object immediately to the use of God language, which is understandable for a multitude of reasons. First is the oppressive conception of God depicted in certain religious texts as a punishing, vindictive, warlike tyrant. Second is the false attribution of the masculine gender to God, and the associated patriarchal oppression that afflicts all major religions (a subject addressed further below). Third is the absence of objective proof that God exists. Fourth is the tragic reality of violence, terrorism, and unjust wars that have been carried out “in the name of God.” Fifth is the naive image of God as a wise old man with a white beard floating in the sky. Sixth is that God as Creator or theistic being has little or no meaning for adherents of nontheistic spiritual traditions.
Any attempt to define God seems fraught with peril, but one approach to this inquiry is to draw upon the collective wisdom of a remarkable gathering of religious and spiritual leaders, from all the major world religions, who have been meeting annually for more than thirty years. The Snowmass Interreligious Conference, convened by Cistercian monk Thomas Keating, includes leaders from diverse faiths, including Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Islamic, Sufi, Jewish,Native American, Hindu (Vedanta), Buddhist (including Theravada, Zen, and Tibetan), Taoist, and no tradition. In the course of their extensive dialogues, this group generated a list of eight points of agreement, as follows:
1. The world religions bear witness to the experience of Ultimate Reality, to which they gave various names.
2. Ultimate Reality cannot be limited by any name or concept.
3. Ultimate Reality is the ground of infinite potentiality and actualization.
4. Faith is opening, accepting, and responding to Ultimate Reality. Faith in this sense precedes every belief system.
5. The potential for human wholeness— or, in other frames of reference, enlightenment, salvation, transcendence, transformation, blessedness— is present in every human being.
6. Ultimate Reality may be experienced not only through religious practices, but also through nature, art, human relationships, and service to others.
7. As long as the human condition is experienced as separate from Ultimate Reality, it is subject to ignorance and illusion, weakness and suffering.
8. Disciplined practice is essential to the spiritual life; yet spiritual attainment is not the result of one’s own efforts, but the result of the experience of oneness with Ultimate Reality.
........
And now back to the last part of the question, why I have talked about that ''GOD'' in personalization, in a way which GOD becomes very ''human like'',..For example in eastern religions and philosophies is a very common belief that GOD or higher beings can take a form of any creature and method to reach us. For example even in Buddhism, where is very popular ''my''beloved bodhisattva / goddess Kuan Yin, there gives a common teaching about her that she has '33 Manifestations,'' probably infinite most people believe. In Hinduism is this very common that GOD has unlimited manifestations and it speak to us in a way that we can understand. In the western religions is the divine unfortunately often portayed with a fix external appearance, personality,..and such exclusivity often creates troubles between people where only >my< version or appearance of the holy is true and yours is ''false.'' I'll end up here because I've written a huge answer, although I could still write about theories about the origin in various philosophies and religions.
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  #73  
Old 19-06-2019, 08:58 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Hey 7L..
I find this interesting. The angels are operating from a different 'dimension' but I bet they are also trying to make sense of reality.

Hey there Altair. Yes it is quite interesting, isn't it? Yes they are so, only from a much broader, deeper, more directly connected, and more informed perspective. Too, they are wholly different from us in their foundational existence and relationship to what is and What Is, and yet we can find common ground at centre.

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My views on this particular topic most closely align with Buddhism and Jainism, in that the angels incarnate too. Perhaps some live in a specific form for many billions of years.
I have no views, LOL. Only experience. Those I deal with have only temporarily incarnated, i.e., as in moments, hours, or days. These are those we refer to as (I suppose) archangels. One I know has incarnated for a single human incarnation but that was a rare exception. We would say that they are energy beings not "made" for incarnation and with no need to reproduce. Nor do they require or crave physical, incarnated experience.

They were created outside of spacetime and "prior to" the creation of our individuated souls -- whatever that means, hahaha. So they certainly have been around for billions of aeons and have witnessed our souls' creation and certainly the creation of spacetime/all physical reality. They do not take a "form" for billions of years...you may have other things in mind here.

Quote:
They are immensely powerful and can be our guides.
Yes and yes.

Quote:
From our point of view some of these beings basically ARE gods/goddesses. They can help us and we worship and pray to them, but I don't think we can conclude that they are all-knowing, all-powerful Grand Architects of the universe..
No that is not at all my experience. You may have other things in mind here.

The transcendental guides are most clearly rooted in humility, transparency, and equanimity, despite their gifts. If we lack humility, transparency, and equanimity in seeking the highest good of all, it will be difficult to work directly with them simply due to our own dissonance. They do not resonate with worship; it is anaethema to them. They will and always have simply conducted or channelled all prayers to Source. They do not operate or fill in as a "personal God" in the common sense I believe you mean.

Now, if you read my post carefully (as I know there was a lot there), I did clearly state that they do not have the answers to the grand, unknowable questions. Frankly, no being does. Nonetheless they are absolutely tasked with oversight of the workings of the laws of the physical universe and all that lie within...ensuring the fabric holds and all that. So again you are not quite right on that point. They absolutely can explain the workings of the physical universe and much more -- and far beyond what we can grasp, if you got a taste of the mindbenders I have got in response to my question.

BUT as to Source "itself" or of That in its essence, of course, they cannot say why it is you are you and I am I. And if they could...I might actually fear them, rather than loving them as elder brothers.

There is no answer to why we exist as we do and as we are and in the specific relationship we have to those souls closest to us at our creation. And so there you go...so what of it? LOL

Quote:
As for this current *universe*... it could be that the universe never had a *true* beginning but merely recreates itself, meaning there's no true 'creation', only the perception of it.. matter/form continuously changing, so to me, there is no ''creation'' as in the biblical sense. I don't believe the universe ''began'' either. It is our desire for linearity and progress that makes us believe there is creation or any beginning, imo. But 'creation' is just change, as is evolution. We put the markers on them imagining they have 'beginnings', but this reality of change and form is all about verbs..
I didn't at all say the universe had no origin. It certainly had a most "recent" origin in the Big Bang several billion years ago. What happened prior, no one knows and it is all speculation. Your reference to matter and form (and energy as it exists in this universe) are all bound by spacetime. That is, they are manifest creations contigent with (or within) the manifest physical universe and its surrounds. By its surrounds, I am including the dark energy and matter AND the antimatter.
All of these are part of what we experience as our manifest universe/spacetime and its surrounds (including dark energy/matter & antimatter). We know of no energy or matter or form outside of these bounds.

Beyond all that is where we can begin to speak of eternity, and that too is variously bounded.

What I said is that our individuated consciousness was eternal from its origin or "point" of creation. Our individuated consciousness was created outside of spacetime, and from that "point" of differentiation and individuation, it is eternal. It is not unchanging but it is persisting. The transcendentals experienced the differentiation of consciousness, or, the birth of our souls, if you will. There was a space where we did not yet exist as individuated consciousness. Then there was, and this "creation" set forth a relational mapping of souls, if you will, like stars in the sky. Some closer, some further from your particular soul.

But there was, is, and will be Consciousness in the sense of One. That, as far as we know, always was, is, and will be. And beyond that and our mystical, non-dual barest apprehension of What Is, we can say no more ;)

Quote:
I didn't know that about Mandela, that people thought he was dead. Was there even a funeral? Could it have been a stunt by the white nationalists to make people think he was dead so there wouldn't be a fuss over the person Mandela..? I don't know. I've never heard about this before.
It only means that you are not aware of the massive change, mostly due to being born more recently and not having had the visceral memory of that time -- but thousands upon thousands...probably millions...do remember. Most under 30s or thereabouts will not have the visceral memory and thus may not understand the vast implications of this. Because the implications are so earth shattering that one's entire set of pat assumptions and reflexively cynical notions would be wholly upended.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #74  
Old 20-06-2019, 09:02 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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Concerning the gods and worship.. Many humans have an innate inclination to bow, kneel, and worship the gods. I think a lot of people don't want to treat higher beings as ''equals'' or buddies. Humans have worshipped them for thousands of years, in different ways, and have experienced all sorts of spiritual things..
In Buddhist and Jain scriptures it is said that those with a lot of good karma may be reborn as angels, and live like that for millions if not billions of years. Buddha is said to have a past life as one such being, in a heavenly realm. However, these beings may live with too much luxury, too much comfort, and while they may be closer to divinity and have more knowledge, they're also living too well off to really chase enlightenment. In contrast, those who live in hellish realm or in much suffering are not equipped for it either. It is said human beings have the right degree of suffering and enough understanding of happiness to give the enlightenment a shot..

I think, comparing all religions and spiritual paths, this is by far the most convincing one. It also puts a nice twist on things, especially on our cultural obsession with linearity, and feels more complete than what many Western authors say. I've read books where people claim humanity is ''evolving spiritually'' etc. but I have to disagree. Spiritually we are merely going back. What may occur is an increased closer connection to the subtle body and the *soul*, which gives off the impression of ''evolving'' but it's us dropping stuff we no longer need. It's not about becoming ''bigger'', ''greater'', or ''more powerful''. It's about becoming less, and more simple..

I studied the topic of ecology and evolution closely and there is nothing about nature that suggests it is divinely inspired to move towards a certain direction. We constantly battle against viruses and bacteria, it is not divine intervention but knowledge that keeps us alive. Many spiritual beliefs we have these days, especially in the developed countries, rest on notions of ''progress'' and ''freedom'' so we tend to think we are ''spiritually evolving''. What I see a lot is an increased interest across the developed world in ghosts, psychic powers, conspiracies, and other phenomena. Nothing suggests increased compassion or closeness to divinity. The world's actually going to the donkeys ((yet another example of that, published yesterday: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/6/eaav7266 ))

Either way (and linking it back to the topic), physically we understand why there is suffering. Spiritually there are different explanations. I say suffering is not about 'God' forsaking us, it's about us playing a game of matter and forms, of being attached to things and wanting more, which is causing the separation..



Last edited by Altair : 20-06-2019 at 10:16 AM.
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  #75  
Old 20-06-2019, 12:55 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Concerning the gods and worship.. Many humans have an innate inclination to bow, kneel, and worship the gods. I think a lot of people don't want to treat higher beings as ''equals'' or buddies. Humans have worshipped them for thousands of years, in different ways, and have experienced all sorts of spiritual things..

Altair, hello there.
I'm actually not here in this discussion to talk about worship. It's not the focus of my response and I have little to no interest in discussing it. I get that people have worshipped and still do worship everything from hunks of rock to other beings. However I am rather indifferent to the fact of worship.

No being of any merit is asking to be worshipped, let's put it that way. If they are, that is highly problematic, LOL. To look respectfully and reverently on others, no matter who they are, is always appropriate...but that reverence and regard is something we need to share openly and give to one another. That which is, or One, is so unknown as to be far beyond our worship. Relating with right-alignment, with the same love, respect, and reverence toward Source and all creation, all that is, is the only authentic thing to do. Be who you are at centre. Be here now.

Quote:
Buddhist and Jain scriptures it is said that those with a lot of good karma may be reborn as angels, and live like that for millions if not billions of years. Buddha is said to have a past life as one such being, in a heavenly realm. However, these beings may live with too much luxury, too much comfort, and while they may be closer to divinity and have more knowledge, they're also living too well off to really chase enlightenment. In contrast, those who live in hellish realm or in much suffering are not equipped for it either. It is said human beings have the right degree of suffering and enough understanding of happiness to give the enlightenment a shot..
You are definitely speaking of other realms and other beings aside from the transcendentals I spoke of. They did not arise from humanity or any persons' good karma. What you say above does not apply to the transcendentals who have always been as they are, i.e., beings of light (as we perceive them with our third eye).

As to humanity, however, what you say makes sense -- that we would be corrupted and unmotivated to the good if we were to live as they do and in some "eternal" human form.

Quote:
I think, comparing all religions and spiritual paths, this is by far the most convincing one. It also puts a nice twist on things, especially on our cultural obsession with linearity, and feels more complete than what many Western authors say. I've read books where people claim humanity is ''evolving spiritually'' etc. but I have to disagree. Spiritually we are merely going back. What may occur is an increased closer connection to the subtle body and the *soul*, which gives off the impression of ''evolving'' but it's us dropping stuff we no longer need. It's not about becoming ''bigger'', ''greater'', or ''more powerful''. It's about becoming less, and more simple..
I agree that living consciously and consciously right-aligning with centre is all about becoming who you are. It's about being here now.

How we choose to frame it or contextualise it is up to us. You are speaking from certain spiritual or religious traditions and that's absolutely fine. This movement into our true centre (which can be seen as evolution if we prefer) can be understood equally well from many other traditions or from a mix of them, or perhaps from none of them. Perhaps it is just viewed as a coming to know one's self more truly.

Quote:
I studied the topic of ecology and evolution closely and there is nothing about nature that suggests it is divinely inspired to move towards a certain direction. We constantly battle against viruses and bacteria, it is not divine intervention but knowledge that keeps us alive. Many spiritual beliefs we have these days, especially in the developed countries, rest on notions of ''progress'' and ''freedom'' so we tend to think we are ''spiritually evolving''. What I see a lot is an increased interest across the developed world in ghosts, psychic powers, conspiracies, and other phenomena. Nothing suggests increased compassion or closeness to divinity. The world's actually going to the donkeys ((yet another example of that, published yesterday: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/6/eaav7266 ))

Either way (and linking it back to the topic), physically we understand why there is suffering. Spiritually there are different explanations. I say suffering is not about 'God' forsaking us, it's about us playing a game of matter and forms, of being attached to things and wanting more, which is causing the separation..
If God or Great Spirit or Source or One...or whatever we want to call ultimate reality...had forsaken us, then we wouldn't even exist. Nothing of this realm would hold from one moment to the next.

This universe would not only NOT have been recreated from scratch post-CERN destruction (i.e., the Mandela effect) and hand-crafted to be nearly identical to prior version(s). No, it wouldn't even be that dramatic. Rather, it simply would cease to exist in the next moment. The universe would simply fail to arise from the field from one moment to the next.

The universe arises and is created anew in each moment. Each moment is contigent on all prior moments and yet is wholly distinct. Formed by and connected by Consciousness. By Intention.
Each breathe recognises a new universe. And that is why, in each moment, there is the freedom to choose anew, to take new decisions, to make a new turn.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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