Why aren't things improving?

[Clover]

The greatest misconception is that many marriages end up divorce, that's quite the contrary, the divorce rates have actually decreased int the past decades. I do have to agree that divorce should be the absolute last option; when your union has become irreconcilable and reached the point of no return.

Divorce doesn't hurt children, two parents fighting and bickering hurt children and their perception of healthy relationships. Yes, there is a very rigid adjustment process children have to endure when parents separate ( speaking from experice) however, it is a short term adjustment. Kids will eventually be much more at peace with themselves in the long run than witnessing two grown adults arguing or swapping partners when the going get's rough. Your offering your kids a cycle of confusion, fear and instability by doing that. Also, the traditional married male and female parenting model doesn't guarantee a successful or 'perfect child' either. There are many different types of parenting in this era. We have same sex couples, grandparents and single parents. I have had a few cousins raised by my grandmother and they went on to college and have decent careers. Children will be okay and at peace as long as you are too.

Lastly,no need for judgement on why two couples "can't make it work", we are human and expanding our level of awareness as we evolve, grow and change. To think we can work with the same thinking model as we did 10 years ago is counterproductive to our growth.


My advice: get counseling and go from there.

It's no way to spend the rest of your life, honestly.

I usually push the idea that the kids you had come first, always. You had them, they're you're (both) responsibility so you owe them until they're on their own feet.

But if quarrels with your husband are upsetting them - if you think they'd be happier out of it with you, that's better than them suffering a stressful home with parents at odds.

You may have to go ahead with a separation / divorce. I can understand jealousy... people invest a lot in partnerships and breaking up like this is usually acrimonious. You will have shared a lot (inc the kids) and come to rely on each other in some ways so the thought of someone else coming into your life is bound to raise his fear of rejection / a blow to his confidence - not to forget having to start all over again, not able to come home to his usual fight arena, sex on tap, etc.

But you say he had an affair with someone? So there it is. He can see the ease with which these things happen; recognise his own vulnerability. It's so often the way - breaking implicit rules (of a marriage, usually around monogamy and trust, e.g.) comes back to bite the cheater.

...

[002 Cents]

Sarian - I am so sorry to hear about how badly your situation got.

It only took three years for me to leave my ex. Thankfully he shown his true colors early on and his behaviors are much more in line with your ex's; both physically and emotionally abusive, narcissistic. That is no way to live.

The thing is my current husband is in no way the man my ex was. He is very kind hearted, loving, hard working...

Granted I wrote this 6 and a half years ago but... it gives you an idea of what things used to be like.

Originally Posted by Journal entry February 28, 2010

My husband reminds me every day he is the one. When I am at my worst, rather that treating me with what I deserve (telling me where to go), he treats me with love and compassion. He realizes I am not a bad person but that I am not perfect either. So when I am low, rather than duke it out, he helps me out. He draws a bubble bath for me or gives me a massage, he kindly reminds me "Honey, if the worst thing I can do as your husband is mess up your Mac n' Cheese, I really don't think you have it that bad.", he holds me while I have a melt down. All of these things are free of charge and constantly renew my faith in my Husband and my marriage. He would never lift a hand to me, or raise his voice, or speak to me in a demeaning manor. He loves me and even more than he claims to love me, he shows me he loves me and in doing so, teaches me what the true meaning of "Love" is all about.

I am truly blessed to have him.

Obviously that is no longer a glimpse into our relationship. It hasn't been for years.

We have spoken exhaustively about things. Ultimately, only time will tell what can be mended and what can't as more and more unexpected characteristics emerge.

My priority since I found out about his gf was to build myself up enough to be my own rock.

And I am getting there through faith and learning to love myself.

AHIYAH - Marriage counseling is something we have spoken about but not yet pursued. He is not opposed but it is expensive and insurance only covers individual counseling.

I will say that I was able to recently formulate a sound exit strategy should I decide I want a divorce and having that gave me the space to really decide which option appealed to me most. For so long I struggled with feeling trapped but the fact that I am still here tells me I am not done yet.

I want to be able to be strong for him too but I do also want to maintain boundaries as far as what I am willing to give up to make him feel better and more secure... Ultimately, those things come from within.

I could be snooping and rummaging through all his accounts constantly trying to find proof that he deserves my trust... but that won't bring me inner peace.

Blue Tiger - There have been changes in the dynamic between us. There were periods where he was sleeping on the couch and then I was sleeping on the couch. There has been a lot of tension but we aren't an explosive couple so even the worst of our fighting hasn't been the type of thing that would scar the children. The most damaging part of all of this would be that it was my son who figured out my husband was cheating because it was with a woman in the online video game the two of them played together. He was the one who came to me and told me my husband had a girlfriend.

After talking to my husband, I of course, had to tell my son that she was just a friend and there was nothing to be concerned about because that wasn't a burden he needed to carry. But he is a teenager... he kinda knows the truth even if he doesn't really mention it. Although... he does occasionally mention it.

I explained to both the kids one on one, once things started to change in the household, that I was considering divorce. It is something we will get through as a family. And if my husband and I can work it out I feel like it will set a good example for them once they reach adulthood.

Right now the benefits of us being together outweighs the strain and that strain would only amplify in multitudes should I break the family apart...

Shrek - Thanks

[AHIYAH]

Originally Posted by TheGlow

AHIYAH you seem to think everyone thinks once you are married it's only about the kids. Is your wife happy, does she really feel loved by you as a mate? It sounds like you love your gran kid and children but she is not your world.

I'm glad you made progress but your children seeing your wife and you not love each other as a prize will likely make them seek out relationship where they are really not joyfully inlove with their mate and only stay for the children.

Imagine if you treasured your wife and she treasured you, it would increase the chances of them seeking marriages that are based on such love.
This is why some saying divorce can be better for the children are saying what they are. Long term they follow the family patterns so sometimes finding happier lives for yourselves is actually going to encourage better patterns in their future.

Um you seem to misunderstand. Every member of the family unit is important. This is why I mentioned the family unit in this thread. Maybe I should've put that in caps. Since the children are our future the interaction between the parents is vital to that, and speaking of my children even though they went through a rough patch they have excelled beyond our expectations because they are very intelligent people. Maybe I forgot to mention that. I've even had one say "Yeah dad we can learn by being taught the wrong way" and one of my son in laws say "I learn by others mistakes". To me the parents the children and the ancestors are all important for our future. Is there something you disagree with in this post?

[002 Cents]

Clover - I do appreciate the feedback. I keep hoping we will be able to sort it out on our own but everyone keeps saying counseling is the way to go. So... yeah...

Lorelyn - Yeah... part of it is that... but also a huge thing I have noticed in the past few months is how manipulative he can be. He wants something and he uses every tool in his arsenel to try to get it... unfortunatley he is more civilized than most about it so his tactics don't involve angry out burts they involve intellect and usually a well orchistrated sales pitch layden with well placed emotions to amlpify their effect...

Right after he broke it off with that woman cutting all contact and convinced me to give us another chance, I ended up hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism. I would have expected him to be there by my side but instead, he was home talking to that woman again. And I was destroyed when I came home and was complaining to my own father about it and he came back with, "well, I talked to him while you were in the hospital and he seemed genuinely concerned."

Yes... he is very good at "seeming" genuine. But actions speak louder than words.

He is the clean cut, mild mannered, well educated, straight edged, gentleman with a successful family background, he is a scientist by profession and quite good at what he does... unfortunately... he can sell anyone on him being a freakin saint. Despite all the hell he has put me through.

I seriously almost took him off my life insurance policy after that stunt. I keep trying to trust this whole nice guy thing... but... sometimes I wonder if he isn't just incredibly good at duping people.

On that note, maybe I am out of my league trying to sort this out. Certainly, I am not qualified to understand whatever personality type it is I am dealing with here. So... counseling...

[AHIYAH]

Originally Posted by 002 Cents

Clover - I do appreciate the feedback. I keep hoping we will be able to sort it out on our own but everyone keeps saying counseling is the way to go. So... yeah...

Lorelyn - Yeah... part of it is that... but also a huge thing I have noticed in the past few months is how manipulative he can be. He wants something and he uses every tool in his arsenel to try to get it... unfortunatley he is more civilized than most about it so his tactics don't involve angry out burts they involve intellect and usually a well orchistrated sales pitch layden with well placed emotions to amlpify their effect...

Right after he broke it off with that woman cutting all contact and convinced me to give us another chance, I ended up hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism. I would have expected him to be there by my side but instead, he was home talking to that woman again. And I was destroyed when I came home and was complaining to my own father about it and he came back with, "well, I talked to him while you were in the hospital and he seemed genuinely concerned."

Yes... he is very good at "seeming" genuine. But actions speak louder than words.

He is the clean cut, mild mannered, well educated, straight edged, gentleman with a successful family background, he is a scientist by profession and quite good at what he does... unfortunately... he can sell anyone on him being a freakin saint. Despite all the hell he has put me through.

I seriously almost took him off my life insurance policy after that stunt. I keep trying to trust this whole nice guy thing... but... sometimes I wonder if he isn't just incredibly good at duping people.

On that note, maybe I am out of my league trying to sort this out. Certainly, I am not qualified to understand whatever personality type it is I am dealing with here. So... counseling...

Wow the plot just thickens in this scenario, I say scenario because everything I read online is taken with a grain of salt. It may or may not be true, no offence intended. Seeing it from this pov is a safeguard where I don't get emotionally attached. I just offer the best advice I can even when all the cards are not on the table. Whatever the outcome Im sure the consequences will be realised in due course. Lets hope you both have considered them all.

[Blue Tiger]

"Blue Tiger - There have been changes in the dynamic between us. There were periods where he was sleeping on the couch and then I was sleeping on the couch. There has been a lot of tension but we aren't an explosive couple so even the worst of our fighting hasn't been the type of thing that would scar the children. The most damaging part of all of this would be that it was my son who figured out my husband was cheating because it was with a woman in the online video game the two of them played together. He was the one who came to me and told me my husband had a girlfriend."

It needn't be explosive or violent to upset kids. Stifled anger is still anger and kids are very good at sensing and internalizing even the hidden emotions of their parents.

That your son has already learned a bit of ugly truth (about his cheating dad) even if you try to smooth it over he'll likely not believe you completely. So be honest with them and yourself. Do what is truly best, after taking a rational look at the situation.

I stayed in a unhappy (but not violent) marriage for many years, believing it was best for the boys. I was wrong. All they learned is that adults lie, and play foolish games with reality and the feelings of others.

They would have coped better, I am convinced, if I had divorced their father much sooner. But at the time I did what conventional wisdom tells us: stick together for the good of the kids.

Just my take on this situation, from my own experience. Sorry you're going through this.

[jimrich]

The phrase, "For the good of the kids" absolutely makes me SICK! Our mom should have left our rotten dad when she had the chance but she fearfully stayed with that monster until he LEFT HER (and us 3 kids)! I was so glad that filthy S.O.B. left us but worried for several weeks that he might come back.

Originally Posted by Blue Tiger

"Blue Tiger - There have been changes in the dynamic between us. There were periods where he was sleeping on the couch and then I was sleeping on the couch. There has been a lot of tension but we aren't an explosive couple so even the worst of our fighting hasn't been the type of thing that would scar the children.

LOL, any of that can "scar" a kid!

The most damaging part of all of this would be that it was my son who figured out my husband was cheating because it was with a woman in the online video game the two of them played together. He was the one who came to me and told me my husband had a girlfriend."

Yes, I'm sure that did damage the son!

It needn't be explosive or violent to upset kids. Stifled anger is still anger and kids are very good at sensing and internalizing even the hidden emotions of their parents.

And the parent's apparently hidden feelings can and will emotionally damage the child as they did in our family!

That your son has already learned a bit of ugly truth (about his cheating dad) even if you try to smooth it over he'll likely not believe you completely. So be honest with them and yourself. Do what is truly best, after taking a rational look at the situation.

I'd only add - do what is BEST FOR your own child!

I stayed in a unhappy (but not violent) marriage for many years, believing it was best for the boys. I was wrong. All they learned is that adults lie, and play foolish games with reality and the feelings of others.

My mom also stayed and now I know why. She was too frightened to leave that monster and also wanted to hang on to the Daddy she always wanted REGARDLESS of what the SOB did to her kids. She was a gutless COWARD and a hopeless CODEPENDENT who didn't give a damn about her own children - just her self!

They would have coped better, I am convinced, if I had divorced their father much sooner.

After that monster left us, we all "coped" better!

But at the time I did what conventional wisdom tells us: stick together for the good of the kids.

LOL, the sentence should say, "Stick together for the fearful needs of the terrified, spineless adults." It's a SICKENING LIE! But then most of what adults and parents tell them selves is based on Denial, Delusion and their own Codependency needs which is usually backed up by our culture.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Sarian

re: he would say "Look at how ugly you are!" or "Look at that fat ......" or "My god you look so old"

This is called "Hitting below the belt" and is just one of the tactics that desperate Controllers use to somehow bring their victims to their knees and fall apart so the Controller wins the round! My ex did this to me a lot UNTIL I entered therapy and acquired enough self esteem/worth to stand up to her viscous stunts. I recently had a "run in" with my late wife's daughters who tried some "below the belt" hits against me but, thanks to therapy, I just LAUGHED them both off! Once you regain your self worth, there isn't much that anyone can do to bring you down!

I spent over 30 years with my husband. I used the same reasoning, I have such and such years invested, I have three kids with him, I want to make it work as so many people give up and divorce so easily. My husband was a control freak and still is and tries to even though he moved to a different state.

I have often wondered exactly what need or fear kept our mom with our monster dad for all those years. He finally left her!

When I was married to him, I did not realize his subtle controlling ways even when it came to my friends. Any time I wanted to go out with my best friend or any friends he would carry on so.

Something similar happened with my 1st wife and I was oblivious to her "games" due to very low/damaged self worth, UNTIL I went for help and a support group helped me see what was really happening with my Perfect wife and the "no-good" me.

It got to the point that it was easier to just stay home than to deal with his rants and mean things he would say. I gave up my friends (always a big mistake and red flag)...If I talked to any man, he accused me of having an affair, if I dared even go out for coffee with my best friend or when I used to go to church there was an elderly woman that would like to talk...well my now ex would accuse me of being a lesbian. It just went on and on like that. Totally ridiculous. I had to have his permission for everything. There was absolutely NOTHING I could do without having his permission. He would sulk and carry on if he did not get his way.

It took therapy and some very deep, honest and courageous looking to finally see how I had lived like a pathetic doormat while she was top dog in almost everything. My gradual change from timid, frightened doormat to having a backbone stunned her!

... even as I reached for the door knob to leave he would say "Look at how ugly you are!" or "Look at that fat ......" or "My god you look so old" Now none of those things were true but when he said them and me having no self-confidence or self-esteem, those words hurt and they DID affect my time out because they permeated my mind and that's all I felt and heard when I was out...I'd be thinking EVERYONE was thinking those things. Needless to say I could not enjoy myself.

OMG, were it not for support groups and therapy to help me cope with her "below the belt hits", I'd still be a helpless little doormat!

Me and my kids are far better off and HAPPY with him gone.

I am so glad to see you say that and wish our mom had stood up to her abuser but she did not and so he finally walked out on her! After the monster was gone, we all BLOSSOMED and BLOOMED - including mom!

Good luck and really think your life over with this man and if it's truly worth the heartache.

IMO, the welfare and mental health of the kids is top priority for any and all parents because the kids get hurt the WORST!

I took the ring and gave it to my daughter.

Good for you and I hope you daughter survived the wreckage of her terrible home life. Us 3 kids "sort of" survived the wreckage of our home life but we still have emotional "issues" that bad parenting infected us with.

Oh well..........to each his own.

[jimrich]

Sorry but I just have to respond to this thing about the "Elders".

Originally Posted by AHIYAH

I am thinking of the children and the damage that will happen should their parents ever split.

In the case of my family, our parents "sticking together" only increased the pain, hatred and violence that us kids had to endure. If they had "split" years before, I am pretty sure all of us 3 kids would have fared much better than we ultimately did. Having two very dysfunctional parents is way worse than having just one, IMO and experience.

After all its the children that are the real losers in this situation so we better tread lightly when giving advice. I'd say divorce is the last resort after all that can be done is exhausted and that's for the benefit of the family unit.

IMO, our parents waited way to long to finally get a divorce which our monster dad obtained in Reno since mom didn't have the guts to do it! What good is "the family unit" if its a sick and dangerous SNAKE PIT???

I can't see why the wider family can't be part of the solution.

In our case, the "wider family" was just too terrified of our violent dad to say a word while watching our family gradually disintegrate! They were all COWARDS!

Where the elders hold the honour and respect and are listened to.

In our family the "elders" were the problem! It was the elders who conditioned and programmed our dad to be such a menacing, dangerous and violent alcoholic, like his dad, and our mother to be such a spineless, pathetic COWARD. Everything about them was started with and by the "elders" and listening to the elders just made matter worse for everyone involved. The alcoholic, dysfunctional, ignorant elders on both sides were the source of all the ugliness in my family!

I suppose this society has long forgotten the values of what makes up the society as in the family unit operating under their elders.

IMO, the elders, in this and nearly every other culture are the FOUNTAIN HEAD of all the dysfunctional, ugly, hateful, violent and ROTTEN beliefs and behaviors that show up as: rape, murder, arson, incest, crime, war, terrorism, racist hatred, violence of every kind and literally all bad, mean and negative behaviors. It all begins with bad/inadequate and sick parenting which goes right back to the "elders". Trace any negative action or belief and you will end up at some elder's door step! All of my dad's lousy behavior began with his alcoholic parents and then all of my brothers and I's rotten behaviors began with our own parents!

People need to be naturally empowered imo.

People are naturally empowered by nature UNTIL their parents ruin all of that by age 3-6. If left un-socialized, by sick adults, I am certain that most kids would come out mentally and emotionally much healthier than they do now. IMO, it's all about parenting and the better, the better.