Tradition and the resistance to change.

[Shivani Devi]

William Blake once said in the Proverbs of Hell "If a fool would only persist in his folly, he would become wise".

So many of the 'traditional thinkers' wouldn't need to change, if they totally went into the whole heart and core of their own philosophy.

It is a common misbelief that people need to 'change' or 'adapt' to progress, when that only applies to those whose current model isn't 'working for them' or 'getting them no-where' and yet, without strict adherence and total immersion IN that model, they will keep 'changing' and 'adapting' with every new thought and every new philosophy thinking they are 'evolving with the times' but they are only being lulled into a false sense of satisfaction, thinking that this carrot will taste totally different from the last carrot they only nibbled at.

In this 'age of entitlement' everybody has the right to express whatever they want because nobody can stop them, even if they wanted to, so it's up to us to use our individual discretion to find out which path suits us, which path we need to follow for our own spiritual benefit...and then for all those who will say "my path is right and yours is wrong" obviously they haven't realised Brahman yet.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Iamit

People can make up thier own minds about how authentic are speakers and the ideas described.

Of course.

I have met Tony Parsons and other speakers on Neo Advaita. In my view they are sincere in thier desire to describe as directly and clearly as they can, the philosophy "All is One" and its implications for the spiritual search. If authenticity is an issue it would be best to meet them or at least watch them rather than smear them all as a cult or suchlike which is designed to group them in with criminals and is therefore indeed abuse.

I watched a small number of ND speakers, and I like most. The mooj is pretty cool, Gangagi, so on. Look, man, these guys who get all uppity are like freakin' out and that's their problem, not yours.

This fellow pretty much says what I go along with, short and sweet as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtOHyVal6JQ

[Bindu*]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Hi Bindo,

Yes all that you refer to may work for certain characters, for example those in the East that may have been raised in those traditions, and for those in the West whose characters also suit paths and practises. Characters vary and for some those traditions may not seem relevant at all. It is not a coincidence that Neo Advaita has become more popular than Traditional Advaita in the West as our traditions are more thought based around ideas and concepts in Western philosophy of which there is much. It is not surprising that the East has been adapted by the West to suit its different traditions. Some traditionalists understand this, others do not and in some cases bitterly. In my view there is no need for the dispute if cultural and character differences are taken into account.

So what has been called the direct method resonates more in the West and is regarded as valid by those it suits as the traditional is for its supporters. One size does not fit all.

The cultural differences of east and west are somewhat just the surface clothing I think. More important is the deeper inherent tendendencies buried in the subtle body and causual body. In terms of the vasanas and samskaras...the karmic patterns in terms of the souls past practices and history. What the person is ripe for practicing et.c.
This is what a real Guru sees and take into consideration.

For some the practice of direct paths are good. But it may come with a warning label. This path is seen as an advanced path, not fit for everyone.
I believe that an integral aproach wich is included some Self-Inquiry is very good for everyone. But to give the impression that there is no need to practice anything else is probably not the best aproach.

Ramana Maharshi in his Upadesa saranam which is chanted everyday in his ashram:
https://ahambrahmasmi4.wordpress.com...mana-maharshi/

...do describe intially karma yoga path and bhakti yoga path....and Selfinquiry as the top of the ladder of practices.

Good if you can do it....but for most people prelinimary practices are needed.

Hard to take a university math class without preparation.

Ramana Maharshi was also praising 'Surrender to God' (Ishwara pranidhana) as a key practice and alternative to Self-inquiry.
This is Bhakti yoga and also part of Raja yoga.


In Nondualistic Kashmir Shaivism there is the 4 upayas (methods).
Varying where the practicioner is at the time being.

* Anava upaya

The path for individuals mostly identified with the body.

* Shakti Upaya
For individuals mostly identified with the mind and psychology.

* Shambavi Upaya

This is advanced path just holding on to Pure Awareness.By an act of will (Icha)

* Anupaya

This is no-means. No method. The Guru says; you are That. You are Shiva...!.....and instantly you realise that fact, without having to practice anything.

This last method is 'one-in-a-million' practice.

The first three methods may also differ from day to day. Say an individual in an advanced stage practicing mostly Shambavi upaya , holding on to pure awareness, is having a day of a running mind...then having a practice in the first cathegori of anava mala may be more good that day. Like following the breath, hatha yoga or some simple mantra practice for example.

Then the state of Shambavi upaya may turn up later in that day of meditation. So the chategories is not etched in stone either....


I don't believe so much in black and white thinking here...like this path is the only one and so forth..


namaste

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Bindu*

The cultural differences of east and west are somewhat just the surface clothing I think.

When you relate non-dually i.e. communicate on that silent shared presence/oneness “level” then cultural differences really are seen as superficial.

More important is the deeper inherent tendendencies buried in the subtle body and causual body. In terms of the vasanas and samskaras...the karmic patterns in terms of the souls past practices and history. What the person is ripe for practicing et.c.
This is what a real Guru sees and take into consideration.

Within those non-dual moments, you sometimes get a sense of the subtle realms a person is not just a witness to but also an actively aware participant - as a “Co-worker in Divine Plan”.

Ramana Maharshi was also praising 'Surrender to God' (Ishwara pranidhana) as a key practice and alternative to Self-inquiry.

The rest I cannot relate to, as I am not educated in Kashmir Shaivism.

[blossomingtree]

A very informative cum helpful post, *Bindu. I'm reminded of Bodhidharma saying the same re: "one in a million". For context, he is in the Zen/Ch'an Buddhism sect -

To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person who’s free: free of plans, free of cares. If you don’t see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, you’ll never find a buddha. The truth is there’s nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Don’t suffer them in vain.

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion.

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black. Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma.

[Bindu*]

Nice...have not read much bodhidharma...but feels inspired to do so now.


Here is some words from Ram Dass about Guru and lineage:

Ultimately each person finds his or her own lineage or route through. And when you reach the stage of asking, “God, know me,” or “Let me be enlightened,” or “I want Nirvana,” or however you’ve said it, at that moment you call forth your spiritual guide or Guru, whom you may not know and may never know until the moment of your enlightenment. That may be Christ, it may be any one of a number of beings, not necessarily on the physical plane. In fact, for most of us, our real Guru, or Sat Guru, is not on the physical plane. Our Guru will guide us, to the extent that we are asking purely, through one teaching after another. Some of those teachings will be in the form of teachers or situations or experiences. And when we trust that we are in a relationship to our Guru, we will constantly learn how to ask our Guru inside, and listen, and tune to the awareness of the presence of our guide, and allow our Guru to guide us, and we will begin to see how each situation is being presented by our Guru to bring us home.

Our Guru or guide represents a unique and specific lineage. Christ represents a lineage. Padmasambhava represents a lineage. Mohammed represents a lineage. Abraham represents a lineage. Maharaj-ji represents a lineage. Not all lineages are necessarily identified with any specific religion. Many of the highest beings have incarnated across time and across religions. Others have come down as a lineage within a religious tradition like a line of tulkus in Tibetan Buddhism, or a line of gurus within Hinduism, rabbis within Judaism, monastic lines within Christianity. Just as Luke is different from John, is different from Paul, is different from Peter, so Milarepa is different from Tilopa. Yellow Cloud is different from Cochise in the Native American tradition. The different Tzaddiks in the mystic tradition of Judaism each represent different lineages. We may ultimately make it through on a specific lineage. We may not have a guide in form, we might be advait, meaning nondualistic, the formless, which would attract us to perhaps Zen Buddhism or Jnana Yoga. Ultimately, we start to fall into a lineage, not because it’s the hip thing to do, not because our intellect tells us it’s interesting, not because it’s a nice community and we like the way they dress, but because that way pulls us and it’s our way through.

As we tune to that lineage, our perception shifts, and we begin to notice changes in the figure/ground relationship. We notice teachers we never noticed before; we notice people to be with we never noticed before. The whole process starts to narrow in perceptually, and we start to go directly on what the theosophists call a “ray” coming from God. Even working devotionally with the concept of God is a ray, because merging with God takes you beyond the concept of God. But to know that all ways lead to the end does not nullify the requirement that, sooner or later, we will have to make some sort of commitment or other. A process of surrender is required.

And we go through the lineage. A lineage that is pure is one that catapults us ultimately out the other end; it isn’t designed to make us followers of the lineage. It is designed to take us through itself and free us at the other end.

– Excerpt from Grist for the Mill: Awakening to Oneness by Ram Dass.

Ram Dass talks here about a certain stage when people genuinely ask for enlightenment and so on which leads to being gradually drawn to some teaching or lineage.

For me it was a time of searching in various new age studies and reading about yoga hinduism and buddhism.

The true chatalyst was 1987 reading Yogananda's: An autobiography of a yogi and some of his talks.....about praying for grace. That led me to sincerely praying for being free.

A month later I was then drawn to a lineage...and that changed things quite.


.

[blossomingtree]

I have never read Ram Dass before but those words elucidate feelings of Truth to me - thank you for sharing it, it is very much appreciated.

And so to your search - it is very generous of you to share that here and it is an honor to hear your journey, *Bindu.

Yes, I believe it all starts with sincere and genuine intention .. although I also add I for one do not know how things develop -

I remember having a series of spiritual "moments" before I was interested - but it was those out of the ordinary moments which led me to seek - and seek for something quite extraordinary, as I was already informed by said "flashes" that there was something beyond ordinary mind/consciousness.

I remember an old friend telling me that by sitting down to meditate, we were in effect giving consent i.e. asking for transformation.

I also find (sincere) prayer to be quite important.

I sought for many years, and it's through that search that we come out - same but different, different but the same, just with a different vantage point, everything is still here, although I have also experienced complete silence (I suspect this is the Buddhist nibbana - it is peace beyond imagination, complete blowing out of delusion - it is truly beautiful) I restarted everything up but also have no regrets The lessons we learn are indomitable, they can never be reversed and so the learning never really ends does it. It is quite beautiful. I also have an effective lineage, although like Ram Dass says, you do find great synchronicity and beauty across so many genuine traditions and individuals (from whatever background they happened to bloom within - this is what I have learnt from this particular forum at least) I should add that I generally favor learning comprehensively within one genuine tradition.

BT

[Iamit]

As you can see here, TA trolls not only want to associate you with criminals but also with insanity, should you dare to describe how NA may work for some.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

William Blake once said in the Proverbs of Hell "If a fool would only persist in his folly, he would become wise".

So many of the 'traditional thinkers' wouldn't need to change, if they totally went into the whole heart and core of their own philosophy.

It is a common misbelief that people need to 'change' or 'adapt' to progress, when that only applies to those whose current model isn't 'working for them' or 'getting them no-where' and yet, without strict adherence and total immersion IN that model, they will keep 'changing' and 'adapting' with every new thought and every new philosophy thinking they are 'evolving with the times' but they are only being lulled into a false sense of satisfaction, thinking that this carrot will taste totally different from the last carrot they only nibbled at.

In this 'age of entitlement' everybody has the right to express whatever they want because nobody can stop them, even if they wanted to, so it's up to us to use our individual discretion to find out which path suits us, which path we need to follow for our own spiritual benefit...and then for all those who will say "my path is right and yours is wrong" obviously they haven't realised Brahman yet.

Yes. You post your knowledge of TA without the need to abuse NA. and its good to have that perspective even if for some it is not relevant just as NA is not relevant for others.

Its good to see support for the right to express without being abused, and for seekers to decide what suits them. For that, all views on the subject of TA compared to NA need to be heard, without attempting to suppress the NA side of the debate by lumping it in with criminals and insanity.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Yes. You post your knowledge of TA without the need to abuse NA. and its good to have that perspective even if for some it is not relevant just as NA is not relevant for others.

Its good to see support for the right to express without being abused, and for seekers to decide what suits them. For that, all views on the subject of TA compared to NA need to be heard, without attempting to suppress the NA side of the debate by lumping it in with criminals and insanity.

I'm glad we could have this calm discussion on the matter.

Please allow me this opportunity to elaborate.

Speaking from my own personal experience, those who become attached to and fixated within their own ideology tend to decry and discredit those of an opposing one and then, those of the opposing paradigm will take offense or become totally defensive, often doing that which they accuse the other party of doing in a continual to-ing and fro-ing of intellectual hypocrisy.

For example, I am a Hindu...but I belong to a very obscure and often harshly criticised and demonised sect of it. In Hinduism, we have many different sampradayas (schools of thought) and the main ones being Vaishnavas (Vishnu devotees) vs Shaivites (Shiva devotees) and they have been at each other's throats for millennia. It's always the case of "my God is the one true God and your God is only a Deva...a 'demigod" (when BOTH are aspects of the other...and of Brahman itself) in the best case scenario, or the opposing deity is called 'Shetan' (Satan) or an 'Asura' (demon) in the worst case scenario...and of course, Hinduism had no notion of a 'Devil' before the Moghul emperors arrived and put the word "Shetan" into common usage among the Hindus...but I digress.

I would love to have $1 for everybody who said that I 'belonged to a cult' or I was 'insane'...or people who followed my way were also 'insane'...and all up, I'd probably have $100...and then, I think to myself "there are almost 8 billion people out there and most of them wouldn't care what I did...what path I followed, as long as it didn't interfere with their lives" and so, I try not to interfere with the lives of others.

I think the main 'stumbling block' in any discussion between TA and NA, is that the TA advocates will see their teachings as the 'original' and 'pure' ones, whilst anything that came after it was a 'copy' or a 'rip-off' of the original teachings...and the copies only cheapen the original teachings...in much the same way as you can go out and buy a pair of Nike shoes for $200 and get brand-name quality, or go and buy a pair of Nike clones for $50 which will probably fall apart after a month of wear. This is the whole issue in a nutshell.

It may be worthwhile to you, to back up your words with those from your philosophy itself, or from Tony Parsons in respect to all those, who as you say, are 'abusing' you...but remember, this is an internet forum and the small sample of those who reside here, don't represent the whole population at large.

So, we present a hypothetical here...just what do you do when a Mormon or a Seventh Day Adventist comes knocking at your door with the 'Good News'? I bet you say "sorry, not interested" despite protestations that you are 'of Satan' and will 'go to hell' for your criminal activity according to God....yeah, I bet you just say "okay, whatever" and slam the door in their face, right? This is no different.

ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पुर्णमुदच्यते
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥

Om Puurnnam-Adah Puurnnam-Idam Puurnnaat-Purnnam-Udacyate
Puurnnasya Puurnnam-Aadaaya Puurnnam-Eva-Avashissyate ||
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

Meaning:
1: Om, That (Outer World) is Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); This (Inner World) is also Purna (Full with Divine Consciousness); From Purna comes Purna (From the Fullness of Divine Consciousness the World is manifested) ,
2: Taking Purna from Purna, Purna Indeed Remains (Because Divine Consciousness is Non-Dual and Infinite).
3: Om Peace, Peace, Peace.

Have a nice day.