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  #231  
Old Today, 03:49 PM
catsquotl catsquotl is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
in the conversation below, would you like to give your 'enlightened' commentary on this ?

Seems to me that human nature is in abundance in all humans. Awake and not so awake.
How wonderful.

With Love
Eelco
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  #232  
Old Today, 04:07 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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[quote=Joe Mc]Yes indeed, I've made several stabs at poetry quite successfully too and music as well i might add. So here we have not stabbing but stomping, in the conversation below, would you like to give your 'enlightened' commentary on this ? I know natureflow since ive arrived here on SF forum and she knows that I have some history with Alcohol and drugs and so although the comments below may not appear as much to you, they certainly were aimed at me and meant to hurt for what reason who knows ? If you go back in history you will see this conversation. Some people are better at expressing themselves in language than others no doubt about it. I'm not a snob in that department and consider my powers to express myself through language rather modest tbh. I often think people make the mistake because they are good at psychology or healing perhaps that they will be good at expressing themselves 'creatively' in language. Stabbing and stomping is there much of a difference between those ? I'm sure we could say alot about it couldn't we in terms of transgressions against females and males then we would hear alot of kerfuffle wouldn't you agree ? I dont expect you to fully understand that conversation but as said i've known natureflow along time and the conversation below was meant to hurt me simple as that :) Thanks for listening.
So just to clarify if we knew someone had been troubled by alcoholism or drug abuse would we consciously and deliberately bring up these areas to conclude a conversation which was light hearted and in good humour, the same way as if I knew someone had been raped or sexually assaulted would I consciously consider using language that might jar that person into trauma ? No I most definitely wouldn't do such a thing but unfortunately people do it, don't they ? Isn't it called pushing buttons etc. Natureflow would probably know what it's called being a trained counsellor lol. yeah. Anyway thanks once again my friend.

[06:47:16] Joe Mc: Ah radical shift in consciousness healing i know it well
[06:47:33] Joe Mc: thats the one down the road :bigtongue:
[06:47:40] naturesflow: lol
[06:47:52] Joe Mc: lol
[06:47:53] naturesflow: the pub down the corner joe?
[06:47:55] naturesflow: lol
[06:48:05] naturesflow: DOwn three energy beers and boom
[06:48:08] Joe Mc: hahahaha !!!!
[06:48:13] naturesflow: you shift from the stool to the floor
[06:48:15] Chrysalis: lol
[06:48:18] naturesflow: Wham!!
[06:48:28] Joe Mc: and a bit diddlely idle
[06:48:37] naturesflow: then the whole pub stomp on you
[06:48:37] Joe Mc: wham bam lol
[06:48:41] naturesflow: and clear you out
[06:48:42] naturesflow: lol
[06:48:45] Joe Mc: thank you mam !!!
[06:48:47] naturesflow: completely
[06:48:50] Joe Mc: oh !!!
[06:48:58] naturesflow: like every part of you BOOM gone zam wham bam gone
[06:49:13] naturesflow: then you fly
[06:49:15] naturesflow: lol[/QUOTE


I presumed you where referring to the post's in this thread Joe, I hadn't read the conversation you have pointed out now, I don't read all post's just the one's I find interesting. I understand now what you mean, best to concentrate on your own health and I am still interested in your poetry 😊
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  #233  
Old Today, 09:18 PM
naturesflow naturesflow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
Yes indeed, I've made several stabs at poetry quite successfully too and music as well i might add. So here we have not stabbing but stomping, in the conversation below, would you like to give your 'enlightened' commentary on this ? I know natureflow since ive arrived here on SF forum and she knows that I have some history with Alcohol and drugs and so although the comments below may not appear as much to you, they certainly were aimed at me and meant to hurt for what reason who knows ? If you go back in history you will see this conversation. Some people are better at expressing themselves in language than others no doubt about it. I'm not a snob in that department and consider my powers to express myself through language rather modest tbh. I often think people make the mistake because they are good at psychology or healing perhaps that they will be good at expressing themselves 'creatively' in language. Stabbing and stomping is there much of a difference between those ? I'm sure we could say alot about it couldn't we in terms of transgressions against females and males then we would hear alot of kerfuffle wouldn't you agree ? I dont expect you to fully understand that conversation but as said i've known natureflow along time and the conversation below was meant to hurt me simple as that :) Thanks for listening.
So just to clarify if we knew someone had been troubled by alcoholism or drug abuse would we consciously and deliberately bring up these areas to conclude a conversation which was light hearted and in good humour, the same way as if I knew someone had been raped or sexually assaulted would I consciously consider using language that might jar that person into trauma ? No I most definitely wouldn't do such a thing but unfortunately people do it, don't they ? Isn't it called pushing buttons etc. Natureflow would probably know what it's called being a trained counsellor lol. yeah. Anyway thanks once again my friend.

[06:47:16] Joe Mc: Ah radical shift in consciousness healing i know it well
[06:47:33] Joe Mc: thats the one down the road :bigtongue:
[06:47:40] naturesflow: lol
[06:47:52] Joe Mc: lol
[06:47:53] naturesflow: the pub down the corner joe?
[06:47:55] naturesflow: lol
[06:48:05] naturesflow: DOwn three energy beers and boom
[06:48:08] Joe Mc: hahahaha !!!!
[06:48:13] naturesflow: you shift from the stool to the floor
[06:48:15] Chrysalis: lol
[06:48:18] naturesflow: Wham!!
[06:48:28] Joe Mc: and a bit diddlely idle
[06:48:37] naturesflow: then the whole pub stomp on you
[06:48:37] Joe Mc: wham bam lol
[06:48:41] naturesflow: and clear you out
[06:48:42] naturesflow: lol
[06:48:45] Joe Mc: thank you mam !!!
[06:48:47] naturesflow: completely
[06:48:50] Joe Mc: oh !!!
[06:48:58] naturesflow: like every part of you BOOM gone zam wham bam gone
[06:49:13] naturesflow: then you fly
[06:49:15] naturesflow: lol

If you would like to know the context of my flying free moment in chat Joe I will explain it to you. Its quite disappointing that you have allowed your own hurt to inflict upon me through your words in the post to blossoming and to sky, but being very enlightened about others and hurt I understand it isn't about me, it is about you. When we hurt or feel something in the face of others, if we assume the context of their sharing or their intent was to hurt or harm and we can harbour and come back to harm them in the face of that, one never fully resolves their hurt.

So I would like to acknowledge your hurt as you feel, but provide you with the underlying intention of my moment in chat to shred away some final bits of my own father issues. If in some ways this has triggered you about your own life, then perhaps you might see some correlation through the underlying meaning that fits into my own life story.



Of late I have been dealing with some deeper issues, that have been difficult and not easy, but I have been getting through, coming into chat after that time allowed me to go into my inner child fun loving side and reflect upon this quite spontaneously (which if you understand clearing and healing the self this deep, this is often the final leap of faith to end the war, as I do it. it is clarity of feeling and freedom to let it all go in light hearted fun) as it came from me, to look at it all with light hearted feeling and connection. It was most freeing to let that go as I did. No one needed to know the whys or how's it was about myself and my own process. I was observing myself releasing to the core of my own deeper scars in this release.

I am a self reflector, when it comes to my own feelings so if I am triggered by others, I look at myself and investigate why I feel as I do, what it might serve me as and how that reaction might take me deeper into myself.

Being in the flow to clear out and connect to that freedom was important for me, especially around this issue that flowed from a recent deeper journey of self investigation about my own father and myself.

As a highly sensitive child, growing up with a father who liked to drink a lot, who was raising a large family, working really hard to support us all, he used the pub as his downtime most nights. In those days his drinking bouts were also suppressing a great deal of his own childhood pain and disconnection, and being highly empathic and sensitive to feeling his pain and those times as a sensitive child, I could feel his skewed relating and reaching out to me to try and love me. At times he was very boisterious and invasive upon me as a young girl. I fought him and struggled with this for a long time. So the context of falling down and stomping from all, it was in fact the relationship of his drunken state and my receiving from him all his pain, in those times. To me it felt like the whole world unresolved in him came at me in those times. (Being stomped on by the whole pub) And on this side of myself releasing all that pain through all that stomping, by healing this fully. (the three beers is symbolic of mind body sprit merging, unifying this deeper rift in myself through the masculine oppression and projection of hidden pain unresolved) It was a difficult space of healing for me around being loved and loving my father, because it was a regular occurrence and a pattern that was hard to break free from.

I can forgive you for coming in the way you have done in this thread, hurt can project its own hurt rather than feel it and look at where it might be in and of itself. I have been there before myself, so I understand, I have hurt in my own hurt, assumed things and got myself tangled in those ways.

I have learned deeper through my fathers life why he was as he was and I have forgiven him too. How I did that was to understand deeper myself, understand deeper others as they are.

As a wounded healer (Its my prime archetype for this life, so I have been told and it makes sense to me ) (not a trained counsellor as you suggest) healing the wounded healer in myself has been long and difficult. But I look at everything in my world not healed, reflect and try to regain the joy of my inner child as deep as that moment shows me. So I let go fully the whole cycle of those patterns in myself.

So that when I work/live as my healer self (not wounded) supporting others as I do, in all ways of living and being the healing, I am not holding on or projecting myself at others in my own containments. I am more fully clear and my presence is more pure as I realize deeper the true nature of myself. Self reflecting and more consciously aware ongoing as life shows me more.

(my net went down in chat which is why I was booted out that day, after serveral attempts to get back in, I gave up. Just in case you thought I might have said my piece to hurt you, fled to not allow you space to express all you were feeling. I understand the nature of interconnectedness and sometimes in our own pain and hurt, where we are and coming from with others in close proximity and sharing, can open triggers and reflections. It seems my sharing has created this for you, I hope this explains to you what it all meant in a greater context and if you feel you would like to open why you were hurting that is entirely up to you. I respect peoples choices to be more open about hurt. In this instance a deeply personal matter had to be shared to support my own exposure here being shown by you of me towards others. I am not defending myself, more showing the truth of this matter. as it truly is )



As for my poetry. I am not trying to be the best poet or writer. But I am consistently willing to build the best version of myself. I am not perfect, i sometimes fail miserably, but I give things my best shot. My poetry is more as a tool of process, realizations (ongoing) deepening, so poetry or prose is just another means of self reflection and deepening into my own realizations.

So perhaps in the greater context of that moment I could actually submit a poem to show a bigger relationship of this for me personally.

My father.

I often wonder what went down in chats
When my father and the boys and the men in fact
Would sit upon those stools at the bar
Drowning in beer and offloading their scars
Did they go so deep, to reflect upon
Their mothers, fathers, was that their song?

As a little girl, I only knew
What came at me in the greater view
Of my fathers loving and unloving ways
Sometimes it felt like
He bought all that crew

From the pub to my space
Do you get the view?
As deep and troubled my father was
I learned this man through all these clues

He was me, sensitive and deep
But his scars and suffering
Suppressed to meet
All those men and boys so tough
Rough and ready, to deal with much


In those times when my father drank
He bought the whole pub home
As a sensitive tank
Filled up to the brim
With drink and others
Trapped inside, was his sensitive cover


When he moved so close in his boisterous ways
Touched my body, breathed and played
I felt the whole world inside of him
His hands so rough, he wanted to win!

He wanted to love me, with drink as his guide
Confident and open, I just wanted to die


You see a fathers love when gentle and kind
Reflects itself with loving signs
But for me the love I received
Was skewed and mixed with every seed
My father took in, never resolved
His death and spirit at least foretold

Together in spirit we learned and talked
I am grateful for his gift
To heal and not get caught
Up in others, their hurts and pain
But rather heal myself and always gain

A humble, loving grateful heart
Who understands the deeper spark
That men and woman hide from to suppress
Keep those wounds deeply repressed



Yes you have touched upon your own story in the past, our stories are similar in different ways of course. I hope that the deeper reflections I offered you here show that in that mode of being I was at the end of my own healing process. You on the receiving end, I suppose were the perfect reflection for me as an understanding person, but then I have learned something important, some of us to heal deeply and let go to the freedom of the inner child without intent to hurt or harm but to set ourselves free. If you have not moved that deep, I apologize that I may have been self absorbed and not able in that moment to consider your own issues that you might still be hurting through from your own past. I hope you find peace and this helps you to know my intent was purely self awareness reflecting itself more freely. Sometimes in that freedom to open in that way initially, I do open to learn beyond that moment of myself. You opened me to consider myself beyond my own freedom, which is something I strive to build upon when others are more truthful with me.

Quote:
Insight meditation and the Satipatthana sutta


Mindfuness is 'to see it is as it', and I wish to talk about it more intricately from the nuances of lived experience.

First a note: the equanimity of a calm mind is required to see deeper, so may we speak together here in tones most conducive to our mutual peace of mind.

The most primal premise is your own discernment because each of us is entirely alone in the exploration and subsequent self-discovery. As we are ardent in the truth, nothing is true because 'Buddha said'. The greater the authority we mindlessly believe and obey, the less we are empowered in discernment. The wise may speak as they do, but without any authority what-so-ever, because no one can have insight for you - only you can truly realise.

If that seems true, it follows that there is no recourse at all outside of ourselves, but still we are mutually supportive having that in common - and in this way the greatest service we may afford each other is our own self-awareness, as that alone enables mutual understanding.

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The wisdom of samadhi is quite different. Higher level wisdom cannot be written down. It cannot be spoken. True wisdom is the knowledge of the universe that is beyond physical expression.

It is important to have a certain amount of solitude just to clear your circuits. You will find that you can be very happy just being by yourself. Go to new places. It will cleanse your spirit.

Last edited by naturesflow : Today at 10:54 PM.
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  #234  
Old Today, 09:54 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
I'm sure Enlightenment can be alluded to and pointed to through language and we have the proof to such a claim in many great Teachers writings such as Ajahn Sumedho and Western Teachers such as Jack Cornfield or Joseph Goldstein. I find poetry to be a good vehicle sometimes, to attempt an expression at some aspect of awakening.

Bless, Joe Mc. Of course as this is a forum, we can all share.

On the topic of Buddhism, I'd like to share please a few thoughts also

Enlightenment seems to be a commonly utilized world in the English language, and on forums.

Enlightenment in a Buddhist context however, in my opinion, is quite specific.

It refers to the awakening of the True Self, the removal and retreat of delusion ("sankharas"), and the doing away of ignorance (ignorance of truth versus falsehood). It represents an advancement and choice towards Truth/Love and a lessened interest in, and dance with, the play of ignorance.

It is, technically speaking, a genuine awakening of a person towards the ways of Dharma.

And whilst the term is used loosely, the specifications of enlightenment in Buddhist terms is actually very specific/technically oriented i.e. it is not merely a this or a that, it is prescribed quite clearly within Buddhism as the stage that concretely enables one to release and cease dukkha, and in Mahayana terms, is the beginning of the concrete reality towards the clarity of Buddhahood.

It has a universal law of applicability, and it is quite specific in terms of its revelation, meaning and actualization i.e. it is not, for example, simply referring to a working through of psychological or psychomatic issues in one's life (although it can involve this, the catharsis is actually at a soul/spiritual level of one's being as opposed to purely within the psychological - a subtle but very important difference both in practice and outcome).

Anyway, I hear your thoughts and I'd just like to add that context to this discussion (given that we are also reviewing Buddhism herein) and words and specification can help us share a common way of communicating and lessen some inconsistencies/misunderstandings in word usage.

BT
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“If you have time to be mindful, you have time to meditate.”

"With even a little intuitive wisdom we will be able to see clearly the ways of the world. We will come to understand that everything in the world is our teacher."

"How does the dhamma teach the proper way of life? It shows us how to live. So still the mind, the heart, and learn to watch. You'll find the whole dhamma revealing itself here and now. At what other time and place are you going to look?"

― Ajahn Chah
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  #235  
Old Today, 10:44 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
So in my understanding, ( my experience of it was a 1 time affair so far. I can't reproduce it at will So it was just an experience)

I don't personally understand it as an experience - it is simply alive and not conditioned - coming through intensive practice and a process of complete purification of karma. It is complete silence.

It is peace beyond thought and cannot be adequately explained through discourse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
All those adjectives you use. Are they inherent to the state?
I would label them as dhamme I think. Allert, allert. compassion compassion, peacefull, peacefull.
Do they arise by themselves or are they fabrications to express that state by.
When you say it is a living state.. Who is living it?

With Love
Eelco

That is the thing: nothing arises in that state.

It is the mind as it is when it dwells in Dharma, and sankharas are extinguished, I believe, and as prescribed by Gautama Buddha.

It is hard to put into words. But I've seen the conjecture on this forum by people that say Nibbana is like death, or there is no-one, or nothing exists. I don't subscribe to those viewpoints, but I do subscribe to how the Buddha taught things, I find it a good balance of wisdom, experiential insight and compassionate guidance.

I found a good analogy by Thanissaro Bhikkhu:

We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good. So when we first learn that the name for the goal of Buddhist practice, nibbana (nirvana), literally means the extinguishing of a fire, it's hard to imagine a deadlier image for a spiritual goal: utter annihilation. It turns out, though, that this reading of the concept is a mistake in translation, not so much of a word as of an image. What did an extinguished fire represent to the Indians of the Buddha's day? Anything but annihilation.

According to the ancient Brahmans, when a fire was extinguished it went into a state of latency. Rather than ceasing to exist, it became dormant and in that state — unbound from any particular fuel — it became diffused throughout the cosmos. When the Buddha used the image to explain nibbana to the Indian Brahmans of his day, he bypassed the question of whether an extinguished fire continues to exist or not, and focused instead on the impossibility of defining a fire that doesn't burn: thus his statement that the person who has gone totally "out" can't be described.

However, when teaching his own disciples, the Buddha used nibbana more as an image of freedom. Apparently, all Indians at the time saw burning fire as agitated, dependent, and trapped, both clinging and being stuck to its fuel as it burned. To ignite a fire, one had to "seize" it. When fire let go of its fuel, it was "freed," released from its agitation, dependence, and entrapment — calm and unconfined. This is why Pali poetry repeatedly uses the image of extinguished fire as a metaphor for freedom. In fact, this metaphor is part of a pattern of fire imagery that involves two other related terms as well. Upadana, or clinging, also refers to the sustenance a fire takes from its fuel. Khandha means not only one of the five "heaps" (form, feeling, perception, thought processes, and consciousness) that define all conditioned experience, but also the trunk of a tree. Just as fire goes out when it stops clinging and taking sustenance from wood, so the mind is freed when it stops clinging to the khandhas.

Thus the image underlying nibbana is one of freedom


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...o/nibbana.html

BT
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“If you have time to be mindful, you have time to meditate.”

"With even a little intuitive wisdom we will be able to see clearly the ways of the world. We will come to understand that everything in the world is our teacher."

"How does the dhamma teach the proper way of life? It shows us how to live. So still the mind, the heart, and learn to watch. You'll find the whole dhamma revealing itself here and now. At what other time and place are you going to look?"

― Ajahn Chah
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  #236  
Old Today, 10:54 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
By making this note I objectify them (like a meditation object) and can therefore make space between the state and my inclination to cling to them..
I.E My anger, I want, I hear, I am calm, It hurts me etc)

With Love
Eelco

I understand this is your methodology.

Bless

BT
__________________
“If you have time to be mindful, you have time to meditate.”

"With even a little intuitive wisdom we will be able to see clearly the ways of the world. We will come to understand that everything in the world is our teacher."

"How does the dhamma teach the proper way of life? It shows us how to live. So still the mind, the heart, and learn to watch. You'll find the whole dhamma revealing itself here and now. At what other time and place are you going to look?"

― Ajahn Chah
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