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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 26-12-2017, 02:02 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamit
If there is only God and God's will and nothing else, whichever fork in the road you take would be God's will.
However you conceive 'will' (the 'will' of Life) to be, that it is the expression a 'singular' Being or that it is the local expression of each of an infinite multiplicity of matrixially interconnected living beings, my 'argument' is that acknowledged or unacknowledged 'judgment' - the word as I use it meaning relative-value assessment - is what 'enables' it to be expressed - this is what determines which fork in the road is 'chosen'.

For instance, without 'judgment' an amoeba (even a 'Godly' one!) would just remain a static 'blob' as it would have no basis for deciding to flow in any direction whatsoever - in which case, I would suggest that 'Life' as a term could not even be used to meaningfully apply to IT in the first place (IMO )
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  #12  
Old 26-12-2017, 02:48 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Eagle
Any further thoughts on the different processes of Judgment and Discernment?
In non-duality who judges or what discerns?

*

A Judgment is rooted in conditioned mind-ego

A Discernment is rooted in Higher Self/Holy Spirit/True Being ~

A judgement will first arise ...... if you CLING to it ...... you will end up having to face the same event you are judging in your own life.
A Discernment will arise ONLY if you ASK the Divine to SHINE LIGHT on it for you ....... then if you accept the Discernment you are NOT bound at all.

Judgment belongs to Karmic Consequence and Discernment belongs to Grace (Liberation)

Knowing that as a concept is NOT enough ....... for ego is quite crafty and clever, it will try to impersonate Discernments as well ......... the difference is clear when experienced a few times ........ Judgment holds a grievance , Discernment FEELS a beautiful PEACE about it even in the most challenging times.
Hi Golden Eagle,

What you are saying is (imo) generally the case.

Adding that judgment is more in/of the rational mind whereas discernment is more intuitive. So regarding the non-duality issue per the OP, in the case of intuition, its source is more from a subjective identification - knowing directly from identity - functionally manifesting oneness vs. theoretical, mental, ignorant, separative, i.e., the inherently objective ego/sense/mind and those associated prejudices (preferences and aversions, etc.) and reasoned conclusions from false premise and superficial appearance.

Not only that, and related to the issue of 'will' brought up in subsequent posts, because of the nature of each, ego always has an opinion and so judgment may assert even when it is not necessary, whereas the intuitive discernment as part of its unitary nature will more likely arise only when it is necessary as an aspect of 'knowing' the will, of simultaneously the 'parts' (e.g., differentiated aspects)/and the whole as interrelated and interdependent as One.

This is an indication that oneness is actually manifesting as a relatively more dynamic truth-consciousness in the physical in-and-through any particular instrumental differentiation of it.

By quieting the normal concrete mental functions as an ongoing practice, and especially through meditation, it actually makes intuition more available, and reliable.




~ J
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  #13  
Old 26-12-2017, 05:46 PM
Iamit Iamit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsun
However you conceive 'will' (the 'will' of Life) to be, that it is the expression a 'singular' Being or that it is the local expression of each of an infinite multiplicity of matrixially interconnected living beings, my 'argument' is that acknowledged or unacknowledged 'judgment' - the word as I use it meaning relative-value assessment - is what 'enables' it to be expressed - this is what determines which fork in the road is 'chosen'.

For instance, without 'judgment' an amoeba (even a 'Godly' one!) would just remain a static 'blob' as it would have no basis for deciding to flow in any direction whatsoever - in which case, I would suggest that 'Life' as a term could not even be used to meaningfully apply to IT in the first place (IMO )

On our planet we have (apparently:) a balancing mechanism called symbiosis. Imagine that mechanism, extended to the whole of the manifestation/duality. That balance may not be apparent 'locally'.

If such a mechanism was in play it would still look and feel like it is 'Us' making judgments, choosing, and acting.
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  #14  
Old 26-12-2017, 08:26 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sentient
*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC-6NRJHAr0

After watching the video, one might say:
“Hey, this guy is supposedly all about being non-judgemental and here he is (from his high tower) ...."
In Ch. 2 of The Bhagavad Gita, it (very truthfully, IMO) says:

"As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled theologian can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose."

The video exemplifies such abuse[/u] of a supposedly transcendental philososhy to 'support' (jusfify?) a grossly immature male-chauvinistic attitude and positionality.

The 'girlfriend' referenced very sanely IMO dumped the fella because he had no appreciation (IMO) of what mutual commitment in 'marriage' is functionally all about. His (make) 'friend' clearly betrayed (abdicated?) the 'promise' implicit in his agreeing to 'marry' his wife.

The kind of moral 'relativism' wherein anything goes and everything is 'judged' to OK - its all just 'God' acting - is thee xpression of a transparently immature eternal Peter Pan who just wants to be perfectly free to do whatever he wants to do and not grow - the is the absurdity of boyish 'sophistry.

Any mature man can 'see' this.

Label what I articulate 'discernment' or 'judgment' or anything else you wish - as far as I am concerned it is simly (finctionally!) callng a 'spade' a 'spade'.

Why is this not obviously the case (case closed!) to the everyone here? I am wondering, is this place seen as a completely response-ability absolving 'safe' haven for "I am just as 'godly' as anyone else no matter what I choose to do or not do" refugees from common-sense morality? Not as long as I am around, it won't be, I say! Sheesh!!
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  #15  
Old 26-12-2017, 09:18 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Judgement = labeling and differentiating something by way of the ego often times accompanied by feelings of superiority or inferiority

Discernment = perceiving and understanding something logically or intuitively without the influence of the ego thus feelings of superiority or inferiority are absent

An example:

John tells everyone adamantly that he meditates twice daily for 40 minutes at the Buddhist club inside the senior center.

Jenny thinks John is telling a lie because she doesn't think his rowdy and unsophisticated character is refined enough to have such a regimented practice. She thinks that he is only saying that to try to impress people. Surely he could not possibly be so devoted to a practice when she hasn't even done anything of the sort. He must be lying. She thinks his lies proves how unenlightened he is compared to her own spirituality. (this would be more aligned with judgement)

Wendy has actually spent time with John daily conversing and playing chess on many occasions. She realizes that although he does meditate every so often, he doesn't appear to have meditated to the effect of 40 minutes twice daily that he claimed. This leads her to conclude that John's statement is most likely to be false. She doesn't mind though that he might be fibbing. Who knows, perhaps this is his new practice that he is doing that she has not had the opportunity to personally observed. She maintains equanimity and kind thoughts towards John. (this would be more aligned with discernment)
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  #16  
Old 26-12-2017, 10:07 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzadi
Judgement = labeling and differentiating something by way of the ego often times accompanied by feelings of superiority or inferiority

Discernment = perceiving and understanding something logically or intuitively without the influence of the ego thus feelings of superiority or inferiority are absent.
Your understanding of and differentiation between the concepts of 'judgment' and 'discernment' has a certain logic and hence possibility of being useful, Imzadi.

I would suggest that you don't make too BIG a thing of it, however, since your understandings and differentiations relating thereto idiosyncratically differ considerably from what such terms are generally understood to mean by the English speaking public.

Same comment applies to your statements in said regards also, Jyotir, as well as to the pro-announcements of several other erudite folks here.

From Merriam Webster's:

Quote:
Definition of judgment

1 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing

usage: careful judgment of the odds

b : an opinion or estimate so formed

usage: is not worth doing in my judgment

2 a : the capacity for judging : discernment

usage: be guided by your own judgment

usage: showing poor judgment

b : the exercise of this capacity

usage: a situation requiring careful judgment

As the quote from The Bhagavad Gita (with a small word change) says: "As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled [logician] can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose."
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  #17  
Old 26-12-2017, 10:12 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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LOL. Dear David, to make a BIG thing out of it as you said would not be the most wise course of action. Should we make a BIG thing out of anything at all I wonder? I believe I was only making a small, simple, and rudimentary example of how I perceive the terms judgement/discernment. I do not have the knowledge or understanding of the complexity that you speak of. :)
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  #18  
Old 26-12-2017, 10:31 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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In the spiritual context, if Ramana says self inquiry is the way to enlightenment and you imagine Ramana to a person who is enlightened, and you do what Ramana says because of that status, that's a judgment of Ramana which leads you into obedience. If, on the other hand, Ramana says self inquiry is the way home, and you consider that inwardly, and it makes sense to you, that doesn't involve any judgment of Ramana, and is your own discernment.
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  #19  
Old 26-12-2017, 10:46 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzadi
LOL. Dear David, to make a BIG thing out of it as you said would not be the most wise course of action. Should we make a BIG thing out of anything at all I wonder? I believe I was only making a small, simple, and rudimentary example of how I perceive the terms judgement/discernment. I do not have the knowledge or understanding of the complexity that you speak of. :)
I do not think you made 'small' i.e. insignificant differentiations, just that they are 'idiosyncratic', IMO - i.e. not referential in relation to what those terms are generally taken to mean.

As to the kind of thing I think of as BIG and COMPLEX, here's an excerpt from a piece I wrote trying to elucidate Jesus' world-view in more generally understandable terms (highlighted in red):

"It has more recently struck me that developments in the field of modern computer systems may provide us with an even more illustrative model for the universally creative, feedback-loop based interfusion of The Essence of Creativity (i.e. what Jesus referenced as ‘the Father’) and the [color]Life[/color] of every individual and amalgamated aspect of Its expression. To explore this proposition, imagine if you will that the main aim or goal of said Essence’s ‘program’ – the primary motive (i.e. ‘desire’) ensconced in its ‘source code’ – is to maximally express and thereby experience Love and Joy, to Joyfully express and experience Love and Lovingly express and experience Joy to the greatest possible degree in every possible way, or something like that.

Next, to picture the activity of the Living Entity of our Creation (i.e. what Jesus referenced as ‘the Son’), imagine a universe-sized network made up of an infinite array of banks upon banks of computers matrixially web-strung together by way of both parallel and series connections, all simultaneously, individually and together, multi-processing the above referenced Love and Joy ‘program’, with each processor and every amalgamation thereof functionally outputting the ‘solution’ it ‘calculates’ will most probably yield the greatest possible Love and Joy ‘result’ in its case (as far as it can prognostically project, that is), which ‘solution’ then operationally functions as input in relation of any and all associated processors to whatever extent they ‘calculate’ it to be relevant to their own Love and Joy process, such that said output-n-input data-packet sequences co-actively ripple and reverberate around the network, sparking Love and Joy focused perceptions and decisions (i.e. experiences and expressions) which conjointly determine what takes place here, there and everywhere in ‘the body’ of said Entity over the course of time."

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  #20  
Old 26-12-2017, 10:50 PM
davidsun davidsun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
In the spiritual context, if Ramana says self inquiry is the way to enlightenment and you imagine Ramana to a person who is enlightened, and you do what Ramana says because of that status, that's a judgment of Ramana which leads you into obedience. If, on the other hand, Ramana says self inquiry is the way home, and you consider that inwardly, and it makes sense to you, that doesn't involve any judgment of Ramana, and is your own discernment.
What if you 'inwardly' (as you say) consider whether "self inquiry" might be "the way to enlightenment" and it makes sense to you? I assume you would say that that is 'discernment' as well - because it has nothing to do with what you discerningly or otherwise 'judge' Ramana to be or not be. That is in line with your logic here, yes?
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