Anattā (no self)

[sentient]

Originally Posted by running

breaking it down into bodies. if were to class it such

1. the mind body
2. the emotional body
3. the bliss body(joy)
4. the silence body(emptyness)

the mind and the emotional body are dualistic in nature. purpose is to be able to live and function in the world

silence and bliss are nondual in nature. purpose is to experience what is beyond the illusion.

when one opens to bliss and to silence it doesn't erase the mind and the emotional body. therefore one can enjoy what is beyond while in a body navigating in the world. since the bliss body and the silence body supercede the mind and the emotional body they surrender to them. nor can block them from ones experince of the beyond once the bliss and silence body have become saturated into ones being.

so the result is a living paradox. where everything is like before one opened up to the beyond. but still living in a body with a mind and emotions. the dominant aspect goes to the beyond. everything rides along with, experinced with joy and with silence. very strange until one becomes used to it. the mind has to surrender to them. this takes time to adjust to.

how all this winds up unfolding is different for everybody. but the bodies and whats experinced is the same for all. and happens for all. in time. spirituality i suppose or for some is to break through to whats beyond. or some other thing depending upon ones goal.

Thank you running – that was very helpful to me at least.
Straight and clear – no convoluted conceptual entanglements, no smoke and mirrors.

the mind and the emotional body are dualistic in nature. purpose is to be able to live and function in the world

silence and bliss are nondual in nature. purpose is to experience what is beyond the illusion.

(Our interpretation may differ and/or vary about it though ….)
I see that division from dual to non-dual as a ‘dimensional shift’.
This shift could be likened to a movement from self-effort to effortlessness - as in (bathing in or receiving) grace.
Or self-effort and grace in balance (grace informing/guiding self-effort and so on) ….

*

[running]

Originally Posted by sentient

Thank you running – that was very helpful to me at least.
Straight and clear – no convoluted conceptual entanglements, no smoke and mirrors.


(Our interpretation may differ and/or vary about it though ….)
I see that division from dual to non-dual as a ‘dimensional shift’.
This shift could be likened to a movement from self-effort to effortlessness - as in (bathing in or receiving) grace.
Or self-effort and grace in balance (grace informing/guiding self-effort and so on) ….

*

no problem.

i think were interpreting the experience the same. joy and silence effortless. causeless

the mind and the emotions have preferences

the dimensional shift as i see it is opening up to the joy and silence. and it does make like an atmosphere of nondual. but i prefer one food over another. and so on.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by running

breaking it down into bodies. if were to class it such

1. the mind body
2. the emotional body
3. the bliss body(joy)
4. the silence body(emptyness)

the mind and the emotional body are dualistic in nature. purpose is to be able to live and function in the world

silence and bliss are nondual in nature. purpose is to experience what is beyond the illusion.

when one opens to bliss and to silence it doesn't erase the mind and the emotional body...

I think that's where one has to be very careful with the assumptions, that come from mind/thought ironically. This is where "spiritual materialism" comes from or being egotistical while pursuing a spiritual path.

It's like thought is silenced, one has some bliss and emptiness, then thought comes in to define and own all of that. So one is still attached to some baggage, one is still carrying stuff to be defensive over, to defend, to promote.

There is only now, and it's not really that one kind of now is holy and another kind of now is not, all now moments have the potential to be holy, it's not the nature of the moment that determines if "enlightenment" is present there or not.

What determines it is the nature of us in these moments. Our relationship with mind, thoughts, our conditioning, within whatever stuff is here now. So it's not what is present that determines our "being" or "seeing," it's our focus, being present as "emptiness." Emptiness not being defined as, "nothing." Emptiness being defined as fully me, fully aware, fully comprehending, fully experiencing what is present, but not interpreting or experiencing now though the content or filter of conditioned biased thoughts.

A student went to his meditation teacher and said, “My meditation is horrible! I feel so distracted, or my legs ache, or I’m constantly falling asleep. It’s just horrible!”

“It will pass,” the teacher said matter-of-factly.

A week later, the student came back to his teacher. “My meditation is wonderful! I feel so aware, so peaceful, so alive! It’s just wonderful!’

“It will pass,” the teacher replied matter-of-factly.

Now just is, it's not "something." Something is created by thought and mind. "What is" exists and is fully experienced with or without the interpretation of mind. One should not say I am spiritual or I am empty or I am without thought, as that is having the attention in mind. Thoughts come and go, maybe present, maybe not present, I just am, present, without expectation or bias fully aware and experiencing whatever is. Without an agenda, or goal, or mentally created preference.

Silent in my being. Wanting to be nothing, not wanting to become something, not identifying with any idea or thought, not identifying with any concept involving time, like anger over the past, fear or ideas of the future, there is only now. And now I just observe. I just perceive. And none of what I perceive mentally, verbally, is me. A thought is like the coffee table, there but not me.

Being fully aware now, I don't let my attention wonder onto the conceptual, any of it, none of the 10,000 years of human ideas and philosophies, all of that is dust on a mirror, I don't accept it, I don't take it on, it is 7 billion back packs filled with rocks one walks around with. Others can be full of that, they can unconsciously add content to now, with great passion and energy, but to make that my focus, to give that my energy, creates it as my reality as well, and I prefer reality and myself as it is, as it exists without creating that overlay to experience.

[running]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I think that's where one has to be very careful with the assumptions, that come from mind/thought ironically. This is where "spiritual materialism" comes from or being egotistical while pursuing a spiritual path.

It's like thought is silenced, one has some bliss and emptiness, then thought comes in to define and own all of that. So one is still attached to some baggage, one is still carrying stuff to be defensive over, to defend, to promote.

There is only now, and it's not really that one kind of now is holy and another kind of now is not, all now moments have the potential to be holy, it's not the nature of the moment that determines if "enlightenment" is present there or not.

What determines it is the nature of us in these moments. Our relationship with mind, thoughts, our conditioning, within whatever stuff is here now. So it's not what is present that determines our "being" or "seeing," it's our focus, being present as "emptiness." Emptiness not being defined as, "nothing." Emptiness being defined as fully me, fully aware, fully comprehending, fully experiencing what is present, but not interpreting or experiencing now though the content or filter of conditioned biased thoughts.



Now just is, it's not "something." Something is created by thought and mind. "What is" exists and is fully experienced with or without the interpretation of mind. One should not say I am spiritual or I am empty or I am without thought, as that is having the attention in mind. Thoughts come and go, maybe present, maybe not present, I just am, present, without expectation or bias fully aware and experiencing whatever is. Without an agenda, or goal, or mentally created preference.

Silent in my being. Wanting to be nothing, not wanting to become something, not identifying with any idea or thought, not identifying with any concept involving time, like anger over the past, fear or ideas of the future, there is only now. And now I just observe. I just perceive. And none of what I perceive mentally, verbally, is me. A thought is like the coffee table, there but not me.

Being fully aware now, I don't let my attention wonder onto the conceptual, any of it, none of the 10,000 years of human ideas and philosophies, all of that is dust on a mirror, I don't accept it, I don't take it on, it is 7 billion back packs filled with rocks one walks around with. Others can be full of that, they can unconsciously add content to now, with great passion and energy, but to make that my focus, to give that my energy, creates it as my reality as well, and I prefer reality and myself as it is, as it exists without creating that overlay to experience.

i think a good practice for someone wishing to erase preferences and so on could begin by eating dog food for breakfast. cow dung for dinner. that would be a start.

then work on big stuff like becoming a nihilist

Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

im not suggesting you are. im simply saying preferences from the mind. from the emotional body is good to have. and to destroy it all if that is possible. would then be a true nihilist. im being faceitious to prove the problem of going all in from the mind.

this is why one should go by practical experince rather than just philsophical ideas from the mind. it could lead to some pretty strange practices and or outcomes imo.

philosophy is only one tool of many on the path. to ignore the rest is not a good idea in my view. i love philosphy and found it very helpful. but it needs to be a part of a collective of things on the journey.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Daz hello there ...yes I see you have put forward some questions along those lines, to see where folks stand on this. And different folks have responded differently, probably due to where folks are at on their journeys and how they relate to your questions.

It occurred to me that whilst still trying to separate from "false self" and penetrate the illusion more fully, many do resonate more with striving for emptiness. It's like growing up and first learning to separate your identity from what what handed to you initially. But spiritually, this could take lifetimes. And then again, we may just need to circle back around and revisit the emptiness periodically as well. And that's why, I think, many still long for the emptiness at any particular point in time. As we round the spiral a few times, no doubt we all come back to the same point eventually but perhaps with a more compassionate view of who we are at core...and that it's all good.

I feel like as we get more comfortable with the reality of what is (not an easy thing), we no longer need so strongly to "be" emptiness because we realise that's not who we are at centre...we are unique, borne of the emptiness into an infinity of multiplicity. And we exist in interbeing with one another. We know the emptiness but we do not dwell there. But it's a process of becoming, in order to apprehend this at heart and not just in mind.

So if a master (let's say Michael -- or an ascended master of your choice) were to ask you right now, how's your practice going?...how would you respond right now? And is there anything of your current focuses, your current challenges and obstacles, that you could share here? Because I think that would be a true service and could provide an entry into discussing where folks are on this journey...and discussing what the emptiness means to them at this moment.

For my part -- in my own practice, I am and have been working on all those forgiveness issues I mentioned above by way of example. Forgiveness of key longstanding persons in my life are current focuses and challenges, and I will also share that a real challenge or obstacle has been forgiving not the physical harms or related emotional harms...but specifically the forgiveness of resentment and loathing. That has been particularly hard, and yet over time and with renewed awareness and reflection, I have made some real and meaningful progress with forgiveness and acceptance. Surely more still remains. But my presence is on it and I know it's important to stay with it.

Glad the retreat was meaningful and productive, and healing to the spirit

Peace & blessings
7L

Good afternoon 7luminaries

Sorry, didn't see you up there talking to daz.

As for this, "So if a master (let's say Michael -- or an ascended master of your choice) were to ask you right now, how's your practice going?...how would you respond right now? "

There would be no point, they already know

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by running

i think a good practice for someone wishing to erase preferences and so on...

Wishing to erase something is "becoming" mind. It's a interpretation from thought. It is resistance to what is. It's the creation of a goal when none is needed.

Originally Posted by running

could begin by eating dog food for breakfast...

The reality is there are three sources of what you are calling "preferences." There is conditioning, experience, and the subtle nature of the awareness or consciousnesses itself. An enlightened person can be selfless, with no identification with thought as self, and still have preferences. The preferences come out of not only experience and knowledge, but also experience heightened and refined by higher awareness.

Originally Posted by running

then work on big stuff like becoming a nihilist...A true nihilist would believe in nothing,...

Nihilist's have a lot of beliefs. They are certainly not free of such things. They don't even seek to have no beliefs.

Originally Posted by running

the emotional body is good to have.

We have one body and yes it has emotions. Emotions are created by chemicals in the brain. We don't take the brain with us when we die, so these emotions don't continue either. I assume you mean the positive emotions are good to have, and not the ones like anger and hate and rage.

Originally Posted by running

this is why one should go by practical experience rather than just philosophical ideas from the mind.

One should only go by experience, pointed to by the fingers of philosophy.

[running]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Wishing to erase something is "becoming" mind. It's a interpretation from thought. It is resistance to what is. It's the creation of a goal when none is needed.



The reality is there are three sources of what you are calling "preferences." There is conditioning, experience, and the subtle nature of the awareness or consciousnesses itself. An enlightened person can be selfless, with no identification with thought as self, and still have preferences. The preferences come out of not only experience and knowledge, but also experience heightened and refined by higher awareness.



Nihilist's have a lot of beliefs. They are certainly not free of such things. They don't even seek to have no beliefs.



We have one body and yes it has emotions. Emotions are created by chemicals in the brain. We don't take the brain with us when we die, so these emotions don't continue either. I assume you mean the positive emotions are good to have, and not the ones like anger and hate and rage.



One should only go by experience, pointed to by the fingers of philosophy.

how long you been in this interesting form of enlightement? whats it like with no preferences? and no emotions?

maybe its just me. all this time i thought conditioning came about from experience.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Rain95

We have one body and yes it has emotions. Emotions are created by chemicals in the brain. We don't take the brain with us when we die, so these emotions don't continue either.

Just a quick side-note here.
Communicating with a ‘ghost’ or a ‘departed spirit’ is (also) a dimensional shift.

There is a ghost in one of my neighbour’s townhouse/unit. A boy about 7 years old.

The first time I visited my neighbour & he “saw” me at the hallway – he said:
Who are you!!!! - And what are you doing here!!!!! With all the anger of territoriality a 7 year old can muster.

*

Originally Posted by running

this is why one should go by practical experince rather than just philsophical ideas from the mind. it could lead to some pretty strange practices and or outcomes imo.

Indeed. And well caught...

JL

Originally Posted by Rain95

One should only go by experience, pointed to by the fingers of philosophy.

Not really; I reckon it's simple.
You have the guide book - follow it. Stop imagining you've reached some state or attainment, whatever it is you believe you have.

For Buddhism, the roadmarks are the same as what the Buddha taught, and we have Gautama Buddha to thank for what he left behind.

JL