And the Experts Say....a Plant Diet is Better For Your Health

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

Human beings are omnivores and predators......we evolved to hunt and eat everything including meat.......

To not hunt and eat animals is to ignore 200,000 years of genetic heritage.
It is who and what we are!

The hunt is sacred and is part of the circle of life......

A gut pile in the woods is a reminder that we will all die one day.....
......and our own bodies will fertilize the soil that grows the plants that the deer and animals eat.......and we will hunt the deer and animals....I have left behind many gut piles in my lifetime.......it is the circle of life.....

What you are ignoring is that we are still evolving. Perhaps not so significantly in a physical and visible way, but spiritually. And part of that is beginning to recognize the intellectual and emotional abilities of the animals who travel through this life with us.

Our big brains have brought us to a point (intellectual evolution) where we have the information and understanding both industrially and technologically and with reference to health outcomes, to know that we don't need to steal life from those fellow travellers. You're making a choice to ignore that evolution, to remain mired in a past that the human species is outgrowing by virtue of that knowledge and by virtue of human numbers and by virtue of what that choice is doing to the planet.

You may never change. Part of the 'old guard', but the world is changing and more and more women are responding to that nurturing spirit of Love and are choosing to bring the children they are raising, to be aware of the feelings of the animals, their needs, their fears. And as each generation comes along, there will be more like me and Baile and fewer like you. Right now, the preponderance of veg'n's are women but that's a blessing because we are the ones who still by and large, control what our families eat. We make the decisions, we shop for the food, we prepare the food, we teach our little ones to be kind to the animals.....and our numbers are growing. Sweden for example has a veg'n population that is about 10%, Israel has a growing population of veg'n's and in America, the numbers are up to about 5% as opposed to the 1% of about 5-10 years ago.

And the world will be a better place because of it. Did you know, that one study has recognized that when people quit eating meat, their temperament actually improves?

Restriction of meat, fish, and poultry in omnivores improves mood: a pilot randomized controlled trial..........

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22333737

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

It is who and what we are!

Hi Lucky. It is who you are. That is a statement of your personal belief. And you care more about believing that, than you care about not killing animals. That is my point. That is the one, identifiable truth here. Without judging. You place your right to believe that, above the rights of animals.

My truth: Humanity has progressed beyond the point of needing to kill and eat animals. There is no longer any anthropological or practical need to. The biggest reason I feel this way, is because I care more about animals, than my need to kill and eat them. I place the rights of animals, above my right to kill them.

Once we've identified the false narrative -- it is who and what we are -- it allows us to have a real discussion. Obviously that is not who we are. That is who you are. But it is not who I am. And now we can discuss the issue of the animals themselves. And their rights.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Debrah

they don't want to be seen as 'emotional' on an issue. We've been taught that it is a sign of weakness.

Hi Debrah. There are a few hot button words I usually avoid. "Emotion" is one of them. "Ego" is another. Many people don't understand that there are higher-self and lower-self aspects to all human behavior. There are higher-self emotional responses (joy, sorrow), and lower-self emotional responses (resentment, jealousy). In this case, I'm talking about the way in which our emotions can also be used to deflect from taking personal responsibility. It's a kind of lower-self scam job we pull (on ourselves mostly).

Those lower-self feelings often manifest as some form of indignance: "I am indignant that you would presume to tell me..........!" Etc. Watch CNN and any political discussion, and observe how much time they spend indignantly huffing and puffing, rather than discussing the question. That's what I'm talking about. Useless emotions. Base emotions.

[Lucky 1]

Originally Posted by Baile

Hi Lucky. It is who you are. That is a statement of your personal belief. And you care more about believing that, than you care about not killing animals. That is my point. That is the one, identifiable truth here. Without judging. You place your right to believe that, above the rights of animals.

My truth: Humanity has progressed beyond the point of needing to kill and eat animals. There is no longer any anthropological or practical need to. The biggest reason I feel this way, is because I care more about animals, than my need to kill and eat them. I place the rights of animals, above my right to kill them.

Once we've identified the false narrative -- it is who and what we are -- it allows us to have a real discussion. Obviously that is not who we are. That is who you are. But it is not who I am. And now we can discuss the issue of the animals themselves. And their rights.

Oh please!!! Really??? And are you two a different species or something???

It is who we are and what we are....you can eat your veggies and try to deny it all you want.....but the omnivorous predator....the "thinking predator" is part of us and lives in us all and that truism always comes out when the chips are down and the barbarians are at the gates.

The law of the jungle still rules our primitive hind brain that we carry from the time our species crawled from the primordial ooze....

Way deep down we are all still of the "tooth, fang and claw" no matter the modern world.....

If you had survived the jungles of Africa like I have....you'd know that.

If you had trekked the Darien with nothing but a backpack, bow and knife like I have....you'd know that.

Your assertion that vegans are somehow farther down the trail of enlightenment then us meat eaters smacks of a rather amazing degree arrogance.

But that frankly is all I've ever seen from every vegan I've ever met....a holier than though, superior attitude.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

Oh please!!! Really??? And are you two a different species or something???

Emotion. I've been saying for several posts now that we use emotion as deflection, a way to avoid an actual dialogue. And you are making it clear you either don't understand that, or you understand but don't care to have an actual dialogue. A spiritual dialogue. About animals. And animal souls. And human soul-spirit evolution, and responsibility.

And Lucky, I don't argue with people. I don't 'oh please !!!!' them to goad them into a fight. It's a waste of time. So we can leave it at that.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

Oh please!!! Really??? And are you two a different species or something???

It is who we are and what we are....you can eat your veggies and try to deny it all you want.....but the omnivorous predator....the "thinking predator" is part of us and lives in us all and that truism always comes out when the chips are down and the barbarians are at the gates.

The law of the jungle still rules our primitive hind brain that we carry from the time our species crawled from the primordial ooze....

Way deep down we are all still of the "tooth, fang and claw" no matter the modern world.....

If you had survived the jungles of Africa like I have....you'd know that.

If you had trekked the Darien with nothing but a backpack, bow and knife like I have....you'd know that.

Your assertion that vegans are somehow farther down the trail of enlightenment then us meat eaters smacks of a rather amazing degree arrogance.

But that frankly is all I've ever seen from every vegan I've ever met....a holier than though, superior attitude.

You've just made my point Lucky. You glory in your primitive outlook and what I think Baile and I are focusing on (along with many in the world) is a continued evolution of spirit. You just aren't there yet. And it would only be arrogance if we were saying that YOU will never get there because you aren't special enough.......and that's not what we are saying at all. Just that you aren't ready YET. In this life maybe, or maybe the next life. No arrogance there at all no matter how you chose to huff and puff.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Debrah

what I think Baile and I are focusing on

We no longer sacrifice animals to appease the gods. We no longer mass-hunt animals into extinction. We are shifting (slowly, hopefully) from destroying the planet, to being aware of our collective responsibility to this living-being Earth that houses us. Quite obviously our consciousness is evolving, and has significantly over the past millennia.

Do I think animals are on the same level as me, and deserve the same respect and rights? Of course I do. I can barely wrap my mind around the thought that this is even a question. In the world I live in, I don't kill animals because I afford them the same right to life human beings have. When I find a spider in the house, I scoop it up in a cup and release it outside.

[Baile]

When I mow the lawn, I stop for the grasshoppers, butterflies and moths, so that I don't run them over. I also mow around the daisies. Heaven knows what I'm going to do when I feel this empathetic towards grass and dandelions.

[Debrah]

You and I think alike Baile. I look at photos of animals and the horrible videos and I just can't understand why others don't see them as thinking beings who are terrified of the things 'we' do to them. I ask myself over and over again, why others don't care. Why they aren't moved by their terror and their pain.....

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Debrah

Why they aren't moved by their terror and their pain.....

Debrah, human beings have always dominated nature without giving it much thought. It's because of this electronic age that people are even aware of some of these social and spiritual questions. But awareness is different than understanding. Clicking on a YouTube video is easy, and might make people aware. But understanding is something that stirs within the soul. People only ever wake up when they are ready to do so.

Also, enlightenment happens by degrees, and I have a long ways to go in my own awakening journey. We are all where we are in our consciousness. Unfortunately, the planet seems to be running out of time and we need to start taking consciousness-raising steps now. That's the tough part of this, as that need wasn't anywhere near as urgent decades ago. Still, I believe in the best in life. I believe in the good, I believe these problems will be addressed and met by an awakened human collective.