The Whole

[slash112]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Yes, a Bodhisattva does delay it too - it is an interesting juxtaposition.

Take care and thanks for your kindnesses.

BT

Ahhh ok I think I get it now xD

Originally Posted by davidsun

That is my understanding of what a 'boddisattva' is as well. BTW, "maha' literally means 'big' or 'great', as in Maharaja meaning the 'big' or 'great' king and Maharishi meaning 'big' or 'great' wise-man (see *link* in this regard). It is my impression that that the 'Maha' in 'Mahayana Buddhism' references what those who subscribe to it think, feel and believe is indicates a bigger/fuller level of realization than 'Hinayana' variety.

...

...

The suffering-free, no anguish 'state' doesn't even come close to what I think of as being maximally Love-and-Joy full) way of living, i.e of being!

Yet again, I enjoyed that read, very relevant to me.

And yeah I suppose the suffering-free state is really just a symptom.

Originally Posted by Gem

It's probably a little more involved than that because there are two aspects involved which are self realisation, which I think you are describing; and purification, healing, alignment, integration, or whatever you want to call it.

Oh good point actually, purification and alignment are important parts. The cleaning up of the ego I suppose is part of purification.

When I'm guiding people, I make a big deal about "stabilizing". You can self-realize, but then it's easy to become lost or unstable, without some means of stabilizing oneself into the truth.

Originally Posted by davidsun

BTW, Slash (slashing what, I wonder? ) -

If you continue to decide to engage and be of service while (for as long as) 'you' are 'here', I suggest you do that because you will actualize/fulfill more of your potential that 'way', and not for some condescending 'noblesse oblige' reason which is 'high-falutin' feel-less-guilt-and-more-good-about-your-self bull-dung (in anyone's case IMO.

Humanity's 'higher' evolution will continue and Life will continue to 'flower' and 'fructify' whether you (personally) contribute to such process, or not!

Live to live, IOW. To that end, I suggest you divest yourself of any and all 'Boddhisatva' related beliefs and pretensions.

OORAH! I say this to you as an 'equal' Life-form 'soldier' 'friend'!

I want nothing more than to serve humanity. I am well aware that the world would go on fine with or without my service, but I dunno I just feel called to help out.

Yeah to be honest I just got excited about the Boddhisattva thing because it sounded like me, and I had never actually heard of such a thing. Something I gotta remind myself at this point is "just be". Instead of "be a [label]" which limits things straight off the bat, I can simply "be".


Thanks guys!

P.S. Oh a fun fact David, my name Slash comes from two places:
1) Lead guitarist in Guns 'n' Roses, Slash
2) When I was 11 years old I was slashed in the face by a big broken drainpipe while playing swords with my pal. Permanent slash scar on my face xD

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Gem

Are you sure your addressing the right person?

I quoted your words, but I was addressing slash (first line after the quote mentions his 'name'. ) - but I was really addressing all 'readers', i.e. everyone,

Originally Posted by Gem

Did you spend time in the armed services?

No, but I grok the 'tough' compatriot-soldier 'ethic' and 'way' of connectivity/connection. Hence the occasional OORAH! to complement my WOOHOOing. I was a (albiet 'lightweight'!) wrestler in high-school and a high-school wrestling coach for many years following, BTW. In such capacity,, I often used motivational phrases like "No pain, no gain!" and "If it doesn't hurt, you aint' working hard enough!" when exercise-'drilling' younguns - besides blowing my whistle real loud, that is!

Originally Posted by Gem

Generally I have an underlying wish for the well-being of all beings, so my overriding motivation is toward service. I would find most meaning in my life if the fact I lived a life has some sort of beneficial effect.

Glad to hear that. We are 'one' (kind) in that regard then. I find the boddhisatva 'way' (as presented by blossomingtree) very questionable in terms of its 'service' value to say the least. IMO, it philosophically 'supports' way too much 'neti neti' escapism and 'ethical' waffling.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by slash112

P.S. Oh a fun fact David, my name Slash comes from two places:
1) Lead guitarist in Guns 'n' Roses, Slash
2) When I was 11 years old I was slashed in the face by a big broken drainpipe while playing swords with my pal. Permanent slash scar on my face xD

Woohoo soldier-softy man!

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by slash112

Ahhh ok I think I get it now xD

I'll post a thread about it for you at some point

BT

[Gem]

Originally Posted by davidsun

I quoted your words, but I was addressing slash (first line after the quote mentions his 'name'. ) - but I was really addressing all 'readers', i.e. everyone,

Teehee, thus my confusion.

No, but I grok the 'tough' compatriot-soldier 'ethic' and 'way' of connectivity/connection. Hence the occasional OORAH! to complement my WOOHOOing. I was a (albiet 'lightweight'!) wrestler in high-school and a high-school wrestling coach for many years following, BTW.

Wow. Awesome.

In such capacity,, I often used motivational phrases like "No pain, no gain!" and "If it doesn't hurt, you aint' working hard enough!" when exercise-'drilling' younguns - besides blowing my whistle real loud, that is!

I recently qualified as an entry level fitness professional, and continue on to get a higher qualification.

Glad to hear that. We are 'one' (kind) in that regard then. I find the boddhisatva 'way' (as presented by blossomingtree) very questionable in terms of its 'service' value to say the least. IMO, it philosophically 'supports' way too much 'neti neti' escapism and 'ethical' waffling.

I have no idea about Botswana hehehe.

[Jyotir]

Hi blossomingtree,

My understanding of the bodhisattva, is that such a being has achieved a state of permanent enlightenment, that they fully embody truth-consciousness having attained mastery of self, and have transformed all ignorance within. They are therefore the quintessence of truth and divinity.

Having realized Satchidananda within themselves, and therefore having the capacity to enter into Nirvana at will, including the possibility of a permanent conscious withdrawal from the Earth and its ignorance, conflicts, and suffering, they may exercise the full freedom of the infinite that they are by declining further cycles of reincarnation. Because they are realized and know who they are, they have fulfilled their physical evolutionary purpose for incarnation and do not need to return to find out.

However, as the embodiment of truth, compassion, and wisdom themselves, and as such truly qualified to be teachers of humanity - out of compassion for those who are still in ignorance, and importantly, as realized fully surrendered instruments of God's Will, Who they in fact are - some of these great souls 'choose' to remain, to willingly re-incarnate, thus sacrificing themselves to the pride of ignorance, the ingratitude, the resistance and the outright hostility of human ego they will encounter by doing so, as a dispensation for the possibility of awakening, nurturing, and progressing the innate spiritual aspiration in others.

In that case, they themselves embody enlightenment as an example, but also as a presence with occult influence, since they are the revealed soul-force within ignorant humanity, whether individual or collective. This physical presence is of great significance - perhaps the greatest demonstration of God’s Compassion besides the creation and sustainment of the Universe itself, since they are the concentrated manifestation of its very purpose, and why these beings are so revered for the unprecedented opportunity they provide:

Not only do they represent the highest within all, but at the same time, they ARE actually the highest within all, as an externalization of that highest truth. As such they are both the symbol of divine possibility and the very means to attain it.

It is an unfortunate but nevertheless common reactive mistake made by still predominantly ego-enmeshed seekers in trivializing or even disparaging such manifestations, as that would serve only to limit and inhibit their own potential for spiritual progression by effectively denying the inherently expedient possibility for divinization that these beings represent generically, and offer directly to individuals.

The only true avenue toward the improvement of world conditions is the divinization of individual beings who then would have a similar effect on the collective. The naïve recycling of ignorance in the form of ego-based altruism that only superficially addresses results, not causes, is naively perpetuating the same problems by further obscuring their real origins.

~ J

[davidsun]

Well said, Jyotir. A couple of comments:

IMO, much of what you describe pertains to anyone who develops to the point of 'full' soul (blossoming, fructifying, soul-seed sowing) maturity, hence to the point where they have nothing more to personally 'gain' or 'learn' or 'real'ize themselves from incarnating. I think that there are many such, who will 'reach' full maturity in the course of their present lifetimes, around us here and now, in this forum even. There are other psychospiritual 'careers' than serving in the bodhisattva role than the one you describe, just as there are many kinds of 'professions', including many kinds of 'teachers', 'healers' and 'light workers'.

My second comment is that the 'characterization' of what such characters choose to do as being a 'sacrifice' demonstrates and unsubsantiated/unsubstantiatable wanting-to-see-them-that-way bias, IMO. The way I see it, that is like someone thinking, feeling and believing that one's parent's chose to have kids (including oneself) as a sacrifice instead of because they thought and felt that doing so would be a great (meaningful? 'good', 'grand'? etc.) way of deploying their creative energies and feeling more 'fulfilled' than they already are by doing so.

Such 'jaundiced' (IMO) characterizations derive from a person not understanding that (any) Life's 'reward' is the experience of joyfully engaging with other(s) aspects of Life and love-ingly expressing Itself in relation to such others and consequently being (even more) loved as well.

To further illustrate the absurdity - the way I see it, it is absurd! - of the kind of bias I speak of, other than the absurdity of thinking, feeling and believing that your parents 'sacrified' themselves by 'chosoing' to parent you, imagine a wife or husband thinking, feeling and believing that their spouse was sacrificing themselves by 'choosing' to commit themselves to her or him instead of as choosing to do so in 'love' because they actually en'joy'ed doing so.

In short, I think your characterization, which is a kind of historically 'standard' characterization of 'saintly' figures, stems from the notion (belief?) that Life on earth is basically being 'hellish' life-sentence and that unsaintly people (i.e. people who haven't yet reached 'full' soul-maturity) are basically what 'rich' people smugly regard as being 'charity'-'cases'!

My purpose in saying all this is to 'nudge' readers (you included) to 'drop' such negatively tainted attitudes towards Life as it is on earth and towards still-developing souls as they are. If these are seen in the 'right' way (i.e. in a way that is unnegatively biased way, IMO) such Life and such others may be experienced as presenting one with gloriously full of 'exciting' opportunities and life-exercising (exercise can be fun, you know!) challenges (which one wouldn't 'have' otherwise! Adopt and engage in a 'committed' relationship with a dog or cat (or any other life form) if you don't know and so would like to experientially (non-ideationally and non-verbally) explore what I mean.

The way I see 'IT', it is high time that we left the old (negative) stereotypes which 'holy' people have adopted and dressed themselves in for (old!) ages behind now, Bro. Though you are so 'immersed' in such fashions I suspect there's little chance of this coming to pass in this lifetime, IMO, you could be of great service if you deployed your talent for clear thinking and lucid verbal expression to help 'usher' 'in' newer, more positive 'fashions', thereby instrumentally seeding the next less get-'me'-out-o-here desirous (and hence) more loveingly-and-joyfully mutually engaged here cycle of earth-civilization.

Just playing cannon-ball splash-about in Life's swimming pool witchoo, Bro - to 'see' what might come from such play -

Woohoo, Bro!

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi blossomingtree,

My understanding of the bodhisattva, is that such a being has achieved a state of permanent enlightenment, that they fully embody truth-consciousness having attained mastery of self, and have transformed all ignorance within. They are therefore the quintessence of truth and divinity.

Having realized Satchidananda within themselves, and therefore having the capacity to enter into Nirvana at will, including the possibility of a permanent conscious withdrawal from the Earth and its ignorance, conflicts, and suffering, they may exercise the full freedom of the infinite that they are by declining further cycles of reincarnation. Because they are realized and know who they are, they have fulfilled their physical evolutionary purpose for incarnation and do not need to return to find out.

However, as the embodiment of truth, compassion, and wisdom themselves, and as such truly qualified to be teachers of humanity - out of compassion for those who are still in ignorance, and importantly, as realized fully surrendered instruments of God's Will, Who they in fact are - some of these great souls 'choose' to remain, to willingly re-incarnate, thus sacrificing themselves to the pride of ignorance, the ingratitude, the resistance and the outright hostility of human ego they will encounter by doing so, as a dispensation for the possibility of awakening, nurturing, and progressing the innate spiritual aspiration in others.

In that case, they themselves embody enlightenment as an example, but also as a presence with occult influence, since they are the revealed soul-force within ignorant humanity, whether individual or collective. This physical presence is of great significance - perhaps the greatest demonstration of God’s Compassion besides the creation and sustainment of the Universe itself, since they are the concentrated manifestation of its very purpose, and why these beings are so revered for the unprecedented opportunity they provide:

Not only do they represent the highest within all, but at the same time, they ARE actually the highest within all, as an externalization of that highest truth. As such they are both the symbol of divine possibility and the very means to attain it.

It is an unfortunate but nevertheless common reactive mistake made by still predominantly ego-enmeshed seekers in trivializing or even disparaging such manifestations, as that would serve only to limit and inhibit their own potential for spiritual progression by effectively denying the inherently expedient possibility for divinization that these beings represent generically, and offer directly to individuals.

The only true avenue toward the improvement of world conditions is the divinization of individual beings who then would have a similar effect on the collective. The naïve recycling of ignorance in the form of ego-based altruism that only superficially addresses results, not causes, is naively perpetuating the same problems by further obscuring their real origins.

~ J

Hi Jyotir,

Infinite gratitude.

You take my breath away with your generous insights, profundity for Truth, and depth of compassion.

Thank you so very much, dear Jyotir. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

BT

PS am still envious of your exceptional ability to comprehend, synthesize and share findings in Truth. If you ever start a course, I'm there

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Just playing cannon-ball splash-about in Life's swimming pool witchoo, Bro - to 'see' what might come from such play

Maybe the splash will 'excite' an 'new' way of 'seeing' and so of thinking and feeling and believing in someone else reading this stuff, or maybe not, who knows?

To quote Mike Jagger "Let me introduce myself" - though that ain't the 'self' he was singin' about! I'm a would-be pinball 'wizard' playing the cosmic pinball game for the love of LIFE and the potential 'in' IT to 'actualize' a 'better' (meaning more functional and hence more enjoyable) and more fulfilling of said potential) venue for LIFE-experience and LIFE-expression here.

Woohoo! What a 'grand' pinball 'machine' physical reality (hence 'incarnation') REALLY is!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AKbUm8GrbM

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Well said, Jyotir. A couple of comments:

IMO, much of what you describe pertains to anyone who develops to the point of 'full' soul (blossoming, fructifying, soul-seed sowing) maturity, hence to the point where they have nothing more to personally 'gain' or 'learn' or 'real'ize themselves from incarnating. I think that there are many such, who will 'reach' full maturity in the course of their present lifetimes, around us here and now, in this forum even. There are other psychospiritual 'careers' than serving in the bodhisattva role than the one you describe, just as there are many kinds of 'professions', including many kinds of 'teachers', 'healers' and 'light workers'.

My second comment is that the 'characterization' of what such characters choose to do as being a 'sacrifice' demonstrates and unsubsantiated/unsubstantiatable wanting-to-see-them-that-way bias, IMO. The way I see it, that is like someone thinking, feeling and believing that one's parent's chose to have kids (including oneself) as a sacrifice instead of because they thought and felt that doing so would be a great (meaningful? 'good', 'grand'? etc.) way of deploying their creative energies and feeling more 'fulfilled' than they already are by doing so.

Such 'jaundiced' (IMO) characterizations derive from a person not understanding that (any) Life's 'reward' is the experience of joyfully engaging with other(s) aspects of Life and love-ingly expressing Itself in relation to such others and consequently being (even more) loved as well.

To further illustrate the absurdity - the way I see it, it is absurd! - of the kind of bias I speak of, other than the absurdity of thinking, feeling and believing that your parents 'sacrified' themselves by 'chosoing' to parent you, imagine a wife or husband thinking, feeling and believing that their spouse was sacrificing themselves by 'choosing' to commit themselves to her or him instead of as choosing to do so in 'love' because they actually en'joy'ed doing so.

In short, I think your characterization, which is a kind of historically 'standard' characterization of 'saintly' figures, stems from the notion (belief?) that Life on earth is basically being 'hellish' life-sentence and that unsaintly people (i.e. people who haven't yet reached 'full' soul-maturity) are basically what 'rich' people smugly regard as being 'charity'-'cases'!

My purpose in saying all this is to 'nudge' readers (you included) to 'drop' such negatively tainted attitudes towards Life as it is on earth and towards still-developing souls as they are. If these are seen in the 'right' way (i.e. in a way that is unnegatively biased way, IMO) such Life and such others may be experienced as presenting one with gloriously full of 'exciting' opportunities and life-exercising (exercise can be fun, you know!) challenges (which one wouldn't 'have' otherwise! Adopt and engage in a 'committed' relationship with a dog or cat (or any other life form) if you don't know and so would like to experientially (non-ideationally and non-verbally) explore what I mean.

The way I see 'IT', it is high time that we left the old (negative) stereotypes which 'holy' people have adopted and dressed themselves in for (old!) ages behind now, Bro. Though you are so 'immersed' in such fashions I suspect there's little chance of this coming to pass in this lifetime, IMO, you could be of great service if you deployed your talent for clear thinking and lucid verbal expression to help 'usher' 'in' newer, more positive 'fashions', thereby instrumentally seeding the next less get-'me'-out-o-here desirous (and hence) more loveingly-and-joyfully mutually engaged here cycle of earth-civilization.

Just playing cannon-ball splash-about in Life's swimming pool witchoo, Bro - to 'see' what might come from such play -

Woohoo, Bro!

'
In reflection of your sharing, I have to say I am on the same page as you in this moment.
I found myself in reading your words a little voice repeating this- "celebrate life".
As co creators choosing paths that as I see this, link to 'no path/all paths' your response shows a deeper understanding of the 'whole' of life. To me our own 'wholeness' open to 'life' as life is in all ways, provides a deeper connection of inclusiveness/oneness from within. An expanded awareness of yourself not as one thing, but all things connected. The choice of path is just a choice and point of living your life with purpose you feel connected too, giving birth to yourself, creating a means of expression in the world as you.

I remember after my brother died, some family/friends of his were calling him a prophet, simply because they hadn't experienced the depth of purification and awakening he had experienced over twelve years of his illness, so it was easier to label his state of being in this light of their own understanding.They observed all those changes he opened too through this means, he became more creative, writing deep poetry, more open and connected to life, he was supporting others, being supported, opening people and sharing in ways they hadn't experienced before. He was reaching deeper within and more expanded outside himself even as he was very sick. I understood in part and now understand more complete what this natural unfolding was bringing forth through the human lived experience and its potential (consequently I was shown a similar 'break through' and ongoing opening to myself and life, only I was able to stay in this body and when "those guides" took me to an ascended view over many months and I was able to look through the veil from there over a number of months to learn of the bigger picture, when the time came to crash back down into reality without them, the realization was basically, " you have all the tools now" just live this life aware and fully as we have shown you. Looking at life more directly in this way as it is and was, did pave the way to bring forth a simple view of course. ) Simple but profound (until you drop the profound) isn't it? No wonder people get trapped with ideas about what this life means. Until your stripped back to notice life as 'you' and life as itself moving as life is and can be within yourself, more as a whole seeing from within, one can be limiting the view of life in themselves more holistically. But that's fine. It is what it is.

In saying all that, I would add that preparation for the future point of our "next adventure" (whatever that may or may not be)here and now is playing out consistently as one, so sometimes you find people focused on the future points building a deeper awareness that way, (which can create a belief/attachment, that it is the only point of life and the only way and sometimes its all for the next life) but as I see it all life is playing out and balance through the whole of your life right now, here and now, lived more inclusively provides a wonderful balance of being and living this life more fully, but that is just me of course. Its all here to participate in, but we have choices in how we do this.
So I see in my own view and yours today a correlation where by the world is and can call us to move beyond ideas that we are limited by paths and labels, that suggest that 'way' is the means to an end of 'something' misses the mark of what life wants of us to experience more as our own "wholeness". Until you see yourself as all life it can be difficult to understand this concept of course. ( I know that statement will shake a few tail feathers..hehe)

As for your nudging points, that too works if it works of course.:)