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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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  #31  
Old 03-12-2018, 02:42 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChang
When using a translated text we must always be careful. Many scholars translate, but use words in their translation of what 'they think it means, VS performing a literal translation. To my knowledge the first scholar to translate the Tao te Ching was James Legge and he did it with a literal translation.

His translation appears in "The Texts of Taoism" part 1 first published in 1891.

From the 2nd section stanza 42. "The Tao produced One: One produced Two; Two produced Three; Three produced All things....

Thanks.

Brian

Thanks for the alternate translation. I agree completely with your point that "Many scholars translate, but use words in their translation of what 'they think it means, VS performing a literal translation." That is so true !

Thanks again for providing the alternate translation along with a very valid insight into the process of "translation" and its pitfalls.
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  #32  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:57 PM
MChang MChang is offline
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Taoism

Still_waters:

If you are interested. I have studies Taoism for over 28 years now. Man I'm old. I have some writings related to Taoist ideas and concepts and even a research work posted here. If you are interested in the research work let me know and I will send you a pdf copy.

thethreeandtheone.com

Thanks.

Brian
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  #33  
Old 05-12-2018, 02:36 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
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  #34  
Old 05-12-2018, 02:45 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
I agree completely with your point that "Many scholars translate, but use words in their translation of what 'they think it means, VS performing a literal translation." That is so true !:

My understanding is that there is no literal translation (although agreed some interpret more then others when attempting to translate). One has to look at the Chinese and do ones best to find words with similar meaning in English.

Even then, there is always the central problem that the Tao Te Ching warns about in the first verse.

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao"

or as Siddhartha puts it

“Wisdom cannot be imparted. Wisdom that a wise man attempts to impart always sounds like foolishness to someone else ... Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it.”
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  #35  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:41 AM
MChang MChang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

What does this mean for you? thanks Brian
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  #36  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:47 AM
MChang MChang is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
My understanding is that there is no literal translation (although agreed some interpret more then others when attempting to translate). One has to look at the Chinese and do ones best to find words with similar meaning in English.

Even then, there is always the central problem that the Tao Te Ching warns about in the first verse.

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao"

or as Siddhartha puts it

“Wisdom cannot be imparted. Wisdom that a wise man attempts to impart always sounds like foolishness to someone else ... Knowledge can be communicated, but not wisdom. One can find it, live it, do wonders through it, but one cannot communicate and teach it.”

I agree. Legge did it as a word for word Chinese to English without putting into the translation what he believed. He added notes on what he thought it meant, but not in the translation. Have you read his translation?

I read the quote you use as meaning it must be experienced. It is like trying to explain to someone what it feels like to hit a golf ball right that doesn't know what golf is. That feeling of being in the moment out of your head and letting muscle memory take over and it working the way it is supposed to. With Taoism If you talk with someone who has had the experience then you can have the conversation because they have that experience to draw upon.

What does it mean for you? Can you give an example? Thanks Brian
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  #37  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:04 PM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChang
I agree. Legge did it as a word for word Chinese to English without putting into the translation what he believed. He added notes on what he thought it meant, but not in the translation. Have you read his translation?

I read the quote you use as meaning it must be experienced. It is like trying to explain to someone what it feels like to hit a golf ball right that doesn't know what golf is. That feeling of being in the moment out of your head and letting muscle memory take over and it working the way it is supposed to. With Taoism If you talk with someone who has had the experience then you can have the conversation because they have that experience to draw upon.

What does it mean for you? Can you give an example? Thanks Brian
Not sure which translations I have read. I have an old paperback somewhere, I will have to find it and see who authored it. When I find translations online, I sometimes find I don't recognize them and sometimes feel like they don't represent my understanding at all. I think the mistake many authors make, though well meaning, is to try to put something in plain English, that probably can't be put into plain words no matter what the language. I believe that one can understand the Tao Te Ching, but I don't believe one can explain it. My first time reading it (20.?.30 years ago) was rather strange. It sounded like gibberish, yet I liked it and wanted to make sense of it. Now I read certain parts and feel like I understand what is being conveyed. I see parallels from seemingly unrelated things, nature mostly, often quantum physics, but trying to explain it to someone else is usually just a disaster, so I have stopped trying. This is what I think is being conveyed in the opening verse. The Tao Te Ching begins with a fair warning to the reader, "be aware, the Tao is not something that can be captured in words or thoughts". The verses that follow are more Zen like, fingers pointing to the moon, rather then the moon itself.
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  #38  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:38 PM
MChang MChang is offline
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I could not agree more. It is an experiential thing. I began to meditate @ 1997 to deal with a difficult work situation and early on kept hearing the phrase 'balance and harmony.' One day in Merriville, IN, while out of town on business, I walked into a bookstore and on the shelf was "The Book of Balance and Harmony" translated by Thomas Cleary. This is what started it for me.

Since then I have written a 365 page 265 footnote research work on Taoism, because I could not help myself, and it was the universes' way of teaching me about Taoism. I am college educated but not a scholar just had to do it.

I discovered hidden things within Taoism, I believe some of the secrets that are hidden in plain view that I try to make part of my day to day practice towards Balance & Harmony.

Duality, heaven earth man, the animal soul and the spiritual soul, how do we shift our consciousness from human to spiritual and experience the world from the soul not the human brain, how do we manage the energy of the universe around us, in the moment to stay in our center... on and on and on...
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  #39  
Old 07-12-2018, 04:46 PM
Philos_Tone Philos_Tone is offline
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That quote is very similar to what I have found in my own thoughts.

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao."

It sounds like they mean, if you can say something about the Tao, it is actually not true everywhere.

I deduce there must be universes where you do not die, and universes where you only die.

Very nice
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  #40  
Old 08-12-2018, 03:31 AM
ketzer ketzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MChang
I could not agree more. It is an experiential thing. I began to meditate @ 1997 to deal with a difficult work situation and early on kept hearing the phrase 'balance and harmony.' One day in Merriville, IN, while out of town on business, I walked into a bookstore and on the shelf was "The Book of Balance and Harmony" translated by Thomas Cleary. This is what started it for me.

Since then I have written a 365 page 265 footnote research work on Taoism, because I could not help myself, and it was the universes' way of teaching me about Taoism. I am college educated but not a scholar just had to do it.

I discovered hidden things within Taoism, I believe some of the secrets that are hidden in plain view that I try to make part of my day to day practice towards Balance & Harmony.

Duality, heaven earth man, the animal soul and the spiritual soul, how do we shift our consciousness from human to spiritual and experience the world from the soul not the human brain, how do we manage the energy of the universe around us, in the moment to stay in our center... on and on and on...

Hidden in plain view is not a bad way way to put it. Sort of like a 3d stereogram. The harder you look for the 3d image, the less likely you are to see it, all you see is what appears to be a random pattern. But relax the eyes and the 3d image pops out at you. Now, try to tell someone else how to see it and they just get frustrated trying, they must see it for themselves. And then once you have seen the pattern in becomes much easier to see again, whether you see the pattern in that particular stereogram or somewhere else. It pops out at you sometimes where you didn't expect to see in, making a connection you never suspected was there.
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