Deep discussions on Buddhist philosophies

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

Just butting in here, and it's right to say attention returns to where it exists, here and now, so I'll just add that the journey isn't going from past to future or from this place to another place as such, but rather, from a grosser solidified perception to a subtler and subtler perception of 'what is' as it is, in the way it is experienced by you.


Mostly, people will say meditation is for having a wonderful experience, and indeed that is the selling point in the popular discourse, but personally I don't say that because the desire for special sorts of experience is antithetical to the practice. The practice as far as I'm concerned is keeping that balance of mind. Different experiences and states of mind will be experienced, but the practice is always to keep the stillness of disposition regardless of the sorts of experiences that happen by.

By having that stability of equanimity of the mind, the mind becomes subtler, sharper and more acutely perceptive, and hence capable of being conscious of subtler aspects of the real lived experience as it is.

You raise a very valid point that "the desire for special sorts of experience is antithetical to the practice". Nonetheless, as you also duly noted, the validating direct experiences do come and, very often, they are completely unexpected.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You raise a very valid point that "the desire for special sorts of experience is antithetical to the practice". Nonetheless, as you also duly noted, the validating direct experiences do come and, very often, they are completely unexpected.

Indeed they come, pass and go away, but the meditation is an awareness free of clinging, craving, aversion with the understanding of impermanence, and that regardless of the experience be it pleasant or unpleasant. In the training one just sits there observing the feelings as they are, maybe painful, maybe a subtle flow, but the practice is maintaining the balanced equanimity of the mind in any case. In this sense we are already talking about something which transcends experience...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I understand what your explaining here.

Can you give an example of sharper, subtler and more acutely perceptive to the lived experience?

How does that relate in the real world as you in this way?

What are you experiencing?

In the breath meditation, for example, with a bit of practice one can start to feel very soft touches of the air clearly and in detail, which one could not feel when they started, because the mind becomes more sensitive and starts to feel subtler aspects of the lived experience. Soon enough, other subtle body sensations start to be noticed and you become aware of the body not as a solid form, but as as moving and flowing. There are things and parts of the body which are still asleep and hard to feel - I call these 'sleeping parts' - but when the mind becomes subtle, those start to wake up and can be felt clear and distinct. There are also emotional issues caught up in the body that feel like hard, dense lumps, kinda like thick tar, or blocks, and as the conscious awareness wake ups up the sleeping parts, those dense places start dissolving into a dynamic flowing feeling as the issue is also released emotionally from deep down in the mind. As a lot of these solidified aspects dissolve away the free flow moves all over and all through the body, and you can move conscious awareness freely throughout the subtler form. The problem then is, people start to desire the subtle feelings and want more and better, so they lose equanimity and start to meditate with craving to get more pleasure - but that leads to problems related to the stability and balance needed to cope with the next phase of the purification. There can become intense movements rushing through which aren't easy to live with, and you need a good mindful balance for that when keeping your balance is about all you can do - then it becomes more obvious that conscious awareness with equanimity of mind is the thing to practice.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the breath meditation, for example, with a bit of practice one can start to feel very soft touches of the air clearly and in detail, which one could not feel when they started, because the mind becomes more sensitive and starts to feel subtler aspects of the lived experience. Soon enough, other subtle body sensations start to be noticed and you become aware of the body not as a solid form, but as as moving and flowing. There are things and parts of the body which are still asleep and hard to feel - I call these 'sleeping parts' - but when the mind becomes subtle, those start to wake up and can be felt clear and distinct. There are also emotional issues caught up in the body that feel like hard, dense lumps, kinda like thick tar, or blocks, and as the conscious awareness wake ups up the sleeping parts, those dense places start dissolving into a dynamic flowing feeling as the issue is also released emotionally from deep down in the mind. As a lot of these solidified aspects dissolve away the free flow moves all over and all through the body, and you can move conscious awareness freely throughout the subtler form. The problem then is, people start to desire the subtle feelings and want more and better, so they lose equanimity and start to meditate with craving to get more pleasure - but that leads to problems related to the stability and balance needed to cope with the next phase of the purification. There can become intense movements rushing through which aren't easy to live with, and you need a good mindful balance for that when keeping your balance is about all you can do - then it becomes more obvious that conscious awareness with equanimity of mind is the thing to practice.

That’s a great description of the process.

So by becoming aware of the mind/body in this way, then as I see this your more clearer to listen to yourself. As I see it now in myself, that subtle deeper level (when you clear and flowing) allows you to listen to your body as a changing flowing awareness. For me this carries and marries into my self care and being the best version of myself.

I was watching a friend today who at some point checked out of listening as I was talking and sharing something. I saw his focus shift. I asked him. Did he hear what I shared. He partially knew. We spoke about those moments and he opened he felt disappointed about losing presence. Interestingly that unearthed him to look a little deeper at those subtle shifts and feelings contained. Not so long after that he was sharing something, which I didn’t hear. I asked him to repeat. The subtle glare he gave, signalled annoyance. I openly shared for him to be mindful as he knows I’m hearing impaired. Interestingly I saw a relationship of both occasions linking him to his own presence. He saw his subtle layers, not fully listening to himself. He understood. He often emphasises how well I see him. I tell him you only see and bring awareness to these things for others, when you have brought those subtle levels open, aware in yourself.

I wasnt offended, I wasn’t annoyed. I was being honest. The truth is felt more clear when we are being truthful to ourselves.

Relationships as an aware open responsible person, is easy with someone in sameness. I think these kind of life experiences with others are where these deeper relationships and deep discussions come into a practice. So your thread topic for me becomes more about how openly one is able to be in the world open and aware, have those often difficult deeper conversations and discussions.

With my friend, he sees me as no threat, with intentions only to empower himself.

Often times if both are ignorant and suffering it becomes very difficult.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

That’s a great description of the process.

So by becoming aware of the mind/body in this way, then as I see this your more clearer to listen to yourself. As I see it now in myself, that subtle deeper level (when you clear and flowing) allows you to listen to your body as a changing flowing awareness. For me this carries and marries into my self care and being the best version of myself.

I was watching a friend today who at some point checked out of listening as I was talking and sharing something. I saw his focus shift. I asked him. Did he hear what I shared. He partially knew. We spoke about those moments and he opened he felt disappointed about losing presence. Interestingly that unearthed him to look a little deeper at those subtle shifts and feelings contained. Not so long after that he was sharing something, which I didn’t hear. I asked him to repeat. The subtle glare he gave, signalled annoyance. I openly shared for him to be mindful as he knows I’m hearing impaired. Interestingly I saw a relationship of both occasions linking him to his own presence. He saw his subtle layers, not fully listening to himself. He understood. He often emphasises how well I see him. I tell him you only see and bring awareness to these things for others, when you have brought those subtle levels open, aware in yourself.

I wasnt offended, I wasn’t annoyed. I was being honest. The truth is felt more clear when we are being truthful to ourselves.

Relationships as an aware open responsible person, is easy with someone in sameness. I think these kind of life experiences with others are where these deeper relationships and deep discussions come into a practice. So your thread topic for me becomes more about how openly one is able to be in the world open and aware, have those often difficult deeper conversations and discussions.

With my friend, he sees me as no threat, with intentions only to empower himself.

Often times if both are ignorant and suffering it becomes very difficult.

In my life now I am relating with the general public a lot, all day, so I interact with a wide range of folks, so my listening skills are coming into play like they used to when I was in community services, which is a practice of self awareness, strangely enough, not really so much about being aware of the other person, but awareness of what's going on with me, and it is interesting that listening to someone else is actually mostly 'listening' to myself. But this week I broke through a self barrier which which was holding me back. I lost my apprehension, got over my insecurity and fear, and opened a flow which opens up all the opportunity. It's opportunity for me, but I am an opportunity for others. I know it is only exercise physiology and nutrition, but it's mostly how benefit is made possible through relationship - and this is also a Buddhist principle: Dana, to serve expecting nothing in return (though I operate within a financial context), and metta: The underlying wish that all beings are happy. This is where I listen to myself, because dana can be tarnished by greed for sales figures and metta can be tarnished by wanting something from others, and I'm not immune from these less than pure frames of mind - especially in the business world which doesn't operate on these two principles. As long as I know it is indeed true of myself that I'm sincerely concerned with the benefit of others and have no greed involved in my service, then I'm actually listening to them as well.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

Indeed they come, pass and go away, but the meditation is an awareness free of clinging, craving, aversion with the understanding of impermanence, and that regardless of the experience be it pleasant or unpleasant. In the training one just sits there observing the feelings as they are, maybe painful, maybe a subtle flow, but the practice is maintaining the balanced equanimity of the mind in any case. In this sense we are already talking about something which transcends experience...

I LOVE the way you express yourself especially the part about how experiences "come, pass, and go away..... free of clinging, craving". It's amazing, nonetheless, how many people (myself included at one time in the past) try to cling to the experiences and want to repeat them thereby taking themselves out of the here-and-now meditative present.

Excellent post (in my humble opinion).

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

In my life now I am relating with the general public a lot, all day, so I interact with a wide range of folks, so my listening skills are coming into play like they used to when I was in community services, which is a practice of self awareness, strangely enough, not really so much about being aware of the other person, but awareness of what's going on with me, and it is interesting that listening to someone else is actually mostly 'listening' to myself. But this week I broke through a self barrier which which was holding me back. I lost my apprehension, got over my insecurity and fear, and opened a flow which opens up all the opportunity. It's opportunity for me, but I am an opportunity for others. I know it is only exercise physiology and nutrition, but it's mostly how benefit is made possible through relationship - and this is also a Buddhist principle: Dana, to serve expecting nothing in return (though I operate within a financial context), and metta: The underlying wish that all beings are happy. This is where I listen to myself, because dana can be tarnished by greed for sales figures and metta can be tarnished by wanting something from others, and I'm not immune from these less than pure frames of mind - especially in the business world which doesn't operate on these two principles. As long as I know it is indeed true of myself that I'm sincerely concerned with the benefit of others and have no greed involved in my service, then I'm actually listening to them as well.

As you duly noted, "to serve expecting nothing in return" is indeed a wondrous freeing happening and "metta can be tarnished by wanting something from others".

I am enjoying your insights and am in full agreement with them. What more can one add?

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

In my life now I am relating with the general public a lot, all day, so I interact with a wide range of folks, so my listening skills are coming into play like they used to when I was in community services, which is a practice of self awareness, strangely enough, not really so much about being aware of the other person, but awareness of what's going on with me, and it is interesting that listening to someone else is actually mostly 'listening' to myself. But this week I broke through a self barrier which which was holding me back. I lost my apprehension, got over my insecurity and fear, and opened a flow which opens up all the opportunity. It's opportunity for me, but I am an opportunity for others. I know it is only exercise physiology and nutrition, but it's mostly how benefit is made possible through relationship - and this is also a Buddhist principle: Dana, to serve expecting nothing in return (though I operate within a financial context), and metta: The underlying wish that all beings are happy. This is where I listen to myself, because dana can be tarnished by greed for sales figures and metta can be tarnished by wanting something from others, and I'm not immune from these less than pure frames of mind - especially in the business world which doesn't operate on these two principles. As long as I know it is indeed true of myself that I'm sincerely concerned with the benefit of others and have no greed involved in my service, then I'm actually listening to them as well.

I can relate, I’m around a lot of different people in my fields of work. When you say your very aware of yourself and opening up those emotional disturbances, it becomes an opportunity to practice and transform and transmute any reactions in everyday living. The reason I bring attention to other parties(close journeying connections) is that it’s both supportive to them and to our relationship as we journey together. It bridges a deeper connection for both. In the past I’ve done it as personal self reflection, always witnessing myself and my reactions, but also projecting “unclear needs” towards the other. I then unplugged and became the witness to others. Allowing them there on process, not bringing anything to their awareness, of my reactions to there state of being. I saw this stage as just being, letting everything be as it is and was. Seeing things as they are. Transmuting through this stream. Not striving to show others, not needing to fix anything. Now as I am more clear without need or agenda towards others, I hold the intention, it’s an opportunity for both. Deepening into presence of the true self, not contained by themselves, not contained by each other. In some ways I’ve become very safe to express anything, and it’s received in this light. It’s important that my suggestions are done in loving kindness. My discernment knows those who are ready to share in this way. My discernment listens to what is. My trust listens to what is. My expression becomes one with all that.

I’m glad you had a breakthrough of fear and insecurity. That will be great support for the next stage of your process.

We are still life participants even as we realize those important core teachings of Buddhism. I’m learning, that it’s all melding into being, so just being myself now, making decisions, choices with those core aspects awakened allows me to move more freely. I’m not consciously needing to “think” about how to be, but more relaxed knowing I can just be as I am. Let everything roll as it will. There is a great freedom in this way of being. It means I allow others as I am.


Ps. One of the things I’ve realized is that if move with those aware and conscious realisations at the forefront, (being this) everything else related, such as business, money, people will move as you are. As long as one is confident to be themselves more open and fully.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

I can relate, I’m around a lot of different people in my fields of work. When you say your very aware of yourself and opening up those emotional disturbances, it becomes an opportunity to practice and transform and transmute any reactions in everyday living. The reason I bring attention to other parties(close journeying connections) is that it’s both supportive to them and to our relationship as we journey together. It bridges a deeper connection for both. In the past I’ve done it as personal self reflection, always witnessing myself and my reactions, but also projecting “unclear needs” towards the other. I then unplugged and became the witness to others. Allowing them there on process, not bringing anything to their awareness, of my reactions to there state of being. I saw this stage as just being, letting everything be as it is and was. Seeing things as they are. Transmuting through this stream. Not striving to show others, not needing to fix anything.

I had a great skill in community service by dropping my need to fix things, just let it be as it is, but I struggled with that need just yesterday in this new role to fix up a physiological issue of a client athlete, but in self reflection afterwards I realised where I went wrong like that, and I have to harness that old skill within this new role. When that need to fix it came up it created a stressful feeling in me, which reduced my ability to be effective. I would have been a lot more effective if I didn't create that stressful feeling. It's a work of continuous improvement, to refine all the aspects of what I have to do now, and keep my presence of mind regardless of what presents.


On the whole, though, since that block of apprehension I had has dissipated away, the flow has been free, and this led to sharp increases in sales because I'm free of hesitation and just flowing on the wave to success - and by success I mean bringing benefits to more people and I get paid. I just need to keep it clear why I do what I do, and not let financial greed become my motive. It's hard to balance that conflict of interest because I'm altruistic and the business is all about the bottom line.

Now as I am more clear without need or agenda towards others, I hold the intention, it’s an opportunity for both. Deepening into presence of the true self, not contained by themselves, not contained by each other. In some ways I’ve become very safe to express anything, and it’s received in this light. It’s important that my suggestions are done in loving kindness. My discernment knows those who are ready to share in this way. My discernment listens to what is. My trust listens to what is. My expression becomes one with all that.

I'm getting there. I'm not quite one in my new environment yet, but I'm starting to 'feel at home'. Once I'm settled in and part of the scene, I'll be more able to move as one with rest of the place.

I’m glad you had a breakthrough of fear and insecurity. That will be great support for the next stage of your process.

We are still life participants even as we realize those important core teachings of Buddhism. I’m learning, that it’s all melding into being, so just being myself now, making decisions, choices with those core aspects awakened allows me to move more freely. I’m not consciously needing to “think” about how to be, but more relaxed knowing I can just be as I am. Let everything roll as it will. There is a great freedom in this way of being. It means I allow others as I am.

That's it, exactly. In my case, I'm new to the place I work in and I don;t know if it's OK to be myself, and really, because I have to live in a new place and in a new way, who I am has to adapt to what my life is now - so it is a transformation of personality, which I guess is continuous anyway...

Ps. One of the things I’ve realized is that if move with those aware and conscious realisations at the forefront, (being this) everything else related, such as business, money, people will move as you are. As long as one is confident to be themselves more open and fully.

Agreed. I find with the sense of being one with the world the whole thing changes together, and any rigidity on my part is only resistance to personal change, so it's anicca and I'm 'like water' (as Bruce Lee said).

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

I had a great skill in community service by dropping my need to fix things, just let it be as it is, but I struggled with that need just yesterday in this new role to fix up a physiological issue of a client athlete, but in self reflection afterwards I realised where I went wrong like that, and I have to harness that old skill within this new role. When that need to fix it came up it created a stressful feeling in me, which reduced my ability to be effective. I would have been a lot more effective if I didn't create that stressful feeling. It's a work of continuous improvement, to refine all the aspects of what I have to do now, and keep my presence of mind regardless of what presents.


On the whole, though, since that block of apprehension I had has dissipated away, the flow has been free, and this led to sharp increases in sales because I'm free of hesitation and just flowing on the wave to success - and by success I mean bringing benefits to more people and I get paid. I just need to keep it clear why I do what I do, and not let financial greed become my motive. It's hard to balance that conflict of interest because I'm altruistic and the business is all about the bottom line.






I'm getting there. I'm not quite one in my new environment yet, but I'm starting to 'feel at home'. Once I'm settled in and part of the scene, I'll be more able to move as one with rest of the place.





That's it, exactly. In my case, I'm new to the place I work in and I don;t know if it's OK to be myself, and really, because I have to live in a new place and in a new way, who I am has to adapt to what my life is now - so it is a transformation of personality, which I guess is continuous anyway...







Agreed. I find with the sense of being one with the world the whole thing changes together, and any rigidity on my part is only resistance to personal change, so it's anicca and I'm 'like water' (as Bruce Lee said).

Yes it’s through ‘feeling mode’ we are felt more clear or not. In clarity we are able to be ourselves, express as that clarity, to reflect what ‘the whole’ shared space requires. The more the ‘not self’ me is out of the way, the more the ‘self aware’expression is felt and heard. ‘I get out of the way’..

I can understand new environments where your opening to clear out more of your own containment’s to move more open and clear, often have these early ‘adjustement’ periods. We move through the totality of those creative environments to not only support the creation outside but our own within. So when your open, aware, you often have to walk through some adjustements to build that clarity. If you might recall, I had a customer in the beginning who challenged me in every way of my many core fears. Through my perception that she was ‘the customer from hell’, she became a final leap through the gates of hell, onto safe land and stronger grounded presence. “A gift in disguise”..

‘Feeling at home’ often reflects our own home within and how we feel inwardly so, yes it all fits.