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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Spiritual Development

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  #81  
Old 10-04-2018, 03:44 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
I agree, however that is not what I see when i look around.
As soon as someones belief system is challenged, or questions I see people ignoring the questions, behave or say not so skillfully in pointing to where the problem comes from.

Take a real life example.
I work with mentally challenged often violent autistic people.
I always give them a first hit. because I know that impulse control is a challenge and if I take the hit, stand my ground and repeat whatever I had to say or ask. the chances of the violence to stop and be heard. (Even though what I say is often not what that person wants to hear because ... society) has a better success rate than pressing my alarm button and jump the poor man or woman with 4 to 6 colleagues.

For me thatś is what my spiritual side has thought me. I will neither ask nor expect my colleagues to do the same, because getting hit sucks big time every time.

I'll stop tooting my own horn now.
This was said as an example..

To me that's what spiritual growth can lead to. Not the spiritual moral high trip many seem to embody when they talk spiritual shop.

With Love
Eelco

Eelco,
Yes - it's difficult enough but especially when we're talking violent and also not possessing the same capacities for restraint and engagement etc as the rest of us. In this way, though most don't want to be assaulted whilst giving treatment, we do need to find a safe and supervised way to treat and ideally more fully engage with these folks. Temple Grandin I believe recommended what I call the full body mummy hug machine as the sort of effective treatment tools that are needed by many, along with appropriate strategies for interaction.

In a similar way, we perform a crude and harsh containment for violent offenders who are deemed otherwise sane are segregated, if caught. Of course, whilst contained, progressive rehabilitation and retraining programmes for the vast majority is a far more effective way to reintegrate them...but that also presumes a healthy society that can likewise provide a clean and sober or relatively violence-free space for their return, so as not to immediate lure them back into old lifeways.

The transcendentals have actually recommended containment of different sorts and different levels for a variety of social ills. This may be of particular use for hard-core recidivists and/or other regressive, reactionary aspects of society where we are at present unable to effectively rehabilitate them (violent psychopaths, paedopiles, etc) and/or they are extremely dangerous and violent (Pol Pot or Stalineqsue types included) This can also be seen on a very crude global scale but to date the containment has been poorly done with great suffering to innocents.

It's a work in progress, for certain...

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #82  
Old 10-04-2018, 03:54 PM
Rain95 Rain95 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
Been navigating the waters of spiritual conversation.
What a useless endeavour that turned out to be.
I am actually gobsmacked by the way some spiritual mature folk will aperrantly use the same emotional response as any human would and somehow call it coming from a spiritual understanding, whilst retorting with the same kind of emotional charged words is seen as childish immature acting out.

If this is what it means to be spiritual. I will gladly remain an animal.

With Love
Eelco

I think what you are describing is a pretty simple phenomenon. People carry around a self image, some carry more, some carry less. Somebody who has a strong well established self image, will be very defensive of it and turn aggressive if any part of it is questioned. Somebody who doesn't have much of one, will be more easy going and fluid/flexible, less reactive as they have nothing to defend. Another term that fits here is self importance, that is related to it as well. More words, humble, selfless, open minded/close minded.

It's all about the self we have built or torn down. There is incoming data...this "Self" reacts based on what it is. It is thought ego based or empty and light?... that kind of thing.

Now in my view, everyone is spiritual. But yes we are all on different paths and here in an incarnation for various reasons. So I try not to judge. I have not waked in another's shoes. There is no way for me to know how advanced spiritually some conscious energy is based on what they manifest in a human body and form. Many factors play into it. Karma and what we are here to experience and deal with can be very complicated. A very advanced soul can chose a human mind that is mentally ill and traumatized, so yea can't really judge. Just love everybody!

I have been disappointed in how some others act, but then I don't have to let what they do affect me. A world of animals, yes that's where we are, so tread carefully and stay alert! God/karma judges all so we don't have to.

Having a strong defensive self image is about a lot more than just "not being very spiritual" or open minded, it's about our childhood and the nurturing and love we got, it comes about due to a lack of unconditional love in our lives, both in others and ourselves.
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  #83  
Old 10-04-2018, 04:15 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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I've been fortunate in having the wife I have had for almost 40 years now putting up with the likes of a spiritual minded person.
I always said she balanced me in the beginning by keeping my feet on the ground when my head would go in the clouds lol
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The cessation of identifying with the fluctuations arising within consciousness
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  #84  
Old 10-04-2018, 04:31 PM
Eelco
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSky
I've been fortunate in having the wife I have had for almost 40 years now putting up with the likes of a spiritual minded person.
I always said she balanced me in the beginning by keeping my feet on the ground when my head would go in the clouds lol

Same here for half that time.
A human specimen in all the natural ways, none of the airy fairy search of divinity.
She is what she is..And thatś all there is to it.

Keeps me grounded big time.

With Love
Eelco
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  #85  
Old 11-04-2018, 03:15 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Location: England
Posts: 1,085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eelco
I agree, however that is not what I see when i look around.
As soon as someones belief system is challenged, or questions I see people ignoring the questions, behave or say not so skillfully in pointing to where the problem comes from.

Take a real life example.
I work with mentally challenged often violent autistic people.
I always give them a first hit. because I know that impulse control is a challenge and if I take the hit, stand my ground and repeat whatever I had to say or ask. the chances of the violence to stop and be heard. (Even though what I say is often not what that person wants to hear because ... society) has a better success rate than pressing my alarm button and jump the poor man or woman with 4 to 6 colleagues.

For me thatś is what my spiritual side has thought me. I will neither ask nor expect my colleagues to do the same, because getting hit sucks big time every time.

I'll stop tooting my own horn now.
This was said as an example..

To me that's what spiritual growth can lead to. Not the spiritual moral high trip many seem to embody when they talk spiritual shop.

With Love
Eelco

How strange that rolling with the punches is something I raised also on the conversation thread.

I lost track of this one & catching up with conversation I see that you also do the same.

I called it "Sin Eating".

~

I was once called a misogynist (despite being a stay at home dad) by a very anti male lady. On & on she bellowed about men being skirt chasers, disease carriers God it was awful - when I pointed out the sexism in these comments naturally I became in her view " anti woman".

I knew something was amiss so I stuck to my guns. Eventually she let slip about her abusive father & ex husbands...

So who is more likely the sexist in this equation?

I pass no judgement but once again I had to take the hits aimed at those other men who had wronged her in times passed.



I did lose my temper with her a touch in the end but I can't really take total responsibility for doing so even though she had my sympathy all along.

Thank goodness for empathy eh?...

.
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"I am your creation.
Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


- Legacy Of Kain
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  #86  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:58 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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I feel for both of the folks mentioned above, the man who was blamed and the woman who had multiple husbands treat her poorly, who may have replicated earlier abuse. This is all too common for humanity in general.

She made the mistake IMO of failing to step back and see the near-universality of the problems she was describing.
IMO you need to look beyond the individuals to the cultural script as the root of nearly all problems. Certainly, it's the starting point for contextualising any individual life, as we don't live or exist in isolation.

Then, only then on top of that we have individual variation, where at some point at least some say, no I stand by my own beliefs and I won't follow the script mindlessly...along with the majority of folks who do much less of that and much more of the script-following.

But it's rather pointless IMO to say look what happened to me when it happens to many, or even most or nearly all. And it's also meaningless to say, well it happens to many or most, and then treat it like it's some sort of sacrosanct thing or universal given that can never be addressed or changed.

What we're nearly always talking about then are much more deeply-rooted cultural scripts which folks play out individually. And there are normally many or certainly at least a few key factors at work which normally come into play.

It's not very helpful for folks to point fingers at the individual or at the individual level. Aside from looking in the mirror. It's typically much more insightful to look at the underlying cultural scripts and paradigms at play, IMO.

And it is at least much easier theoretically (& IMO actually) to discuss things from a cultural level -- where everyone can examine for themselves to what extent a given script, worldview, expectations, and assumptions apply.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #87  
Old 12-04-2018, 07:24 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: England
Posts: 1,085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
I think what you are describing is a pretty simple phenomenon. People carry around a self image, some carry more, some carry less. Somebody who has a strong well established self image, will be very defensive of it and turn aggressive if any part of it is questioned. Somebody who doesn't have much of one, will be more easy going and fluid/flexible, less reactive as they have nothing to defend. Another term that fits here is self importance, that is related to it as well. More words, humble, selfless, open minded/close minded.

It's all about the self we have built or torn down. There is incoming data...this "Self" reacts based on what it is. It is thought ego based or empty and light?... that kind of thing.

I have been disappointed in how some others act, but then I don't have to let what they do affect me. A world of animals, yes that's where we are, so tread carefully and stay alert! God/karma judges all so we don't have to.

Having a strong defensive self image is about a lot more than just "not being very spiritual" or open minded, it's about our childhood and the nurturing and love we got, it comes about due to a lack of unconditional love in our lives, both in others and ourselves.

Totally,

I spoke elsewhere about what is referred to as "the dark night of the soul".

Having been through that I can say that the "self" essentially explodes into tiny pieces. It's a "Hasta La Vista Baby" moment (Terminator 2 reference to any teens reading).

What reforms is everything that you were before & everything that you weren't.

I said above that I was never really into choosing teams as a child - after my dark night I saw how profound that notion really is.

You can't even describe it as being an "army of one" - you an "army of everything" even if most of the people around you don't realise that your actually rooting for them as much as yourself.

There are many obstacles in our path but ultimately we are our own biggest obstacle.

You can't really blame location or culture as if you are aware of a problem then only you can keep yourself away from it. It's another external element. Whilst it will be true on some level your the one that eventually decides to change things.

~

If a bridge reads danger do not cross there will always be those who ignore the signs, perhaps they don't speak the language or they are daredevils.

How far onto the bridge you find yourself depends on all of the above - if you become conscious halfway across then you really are in a pickle.

My interpretation of being self aware & spiritually aware is just as similar.

~

Its whether or not a person can admit to or even see the mistakes that they (and all of us) make & adjust I think is the key.

It's like Alcoholics anonymous: "Hello I'm Raziel & I'm a sinner" - gotta start with you.

.

"Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results"
* Narcotics Anonymous 1982 *

.
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Now, as before - you criticise your own work."


- Legacy Of Kain
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