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  #21  
Old 24-11-2019, 09:18 PM
Tobi Tobi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Hi everyone, thank you for clicking.

There is a concept in Catholicism where certain souls receive absolutely no consolation/signs/feedback from God, and when they seek any sort of spiritual reassurance they face nothing but an empty void. It's supposedly a higher path because the person is learning trust/faith in God without having any evidence whatsoever to back up their faith.

Does this concept exist in non-religious spiritual thinking?

As far as I know, all manner of experiences are possible during the expansion of consciousness, with or without "religion".

What you describe sounds rather like the "Dark Night of the Soul", a common experience on many paths, at a certain level of learning.
However, it is not a permanent state, though could possibly last for some time.
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  #22  
Old 25-11-2019, 12:45 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Here's another thought. The region of the brain responsible for perception of our life past, present and future is called the default network. It's the "Story of Me", and while it might be true in one sense it's not the whole story. Mindfulness training does three things: 1 - Lessens activity or importance of that network to some degree; 2 - Strengthens a lateral network that's a self-referential network more rooted in present moment experience; 3 - Lessens reactivity and value-laden judgments associated with the default network.

Here's an article titled "A mindfulness prescription for adult ADHD"

https://www.mindful.org/a-mindfulnes...or-adult-adhd/

Here's a totally free MBSR course. it's an 8 week course and looks like it requires a lot of dedication. Not sure if it's up your alley but I thought I'd put it out there. It has really good content and by some of the leaders in the field, including Jon Kabat-Zinn, the creator of MBSR.

https://palousemindfulness.com/index.html

In the end and my opinion is spirituality is more about cutting through the chaff to find the wheat, so to speak. Your ADHD is an obstacle to cutting through the chaff and MBSR might help you push through that and advance your journey.

Thanks a lot, I will definitely take a look. My previous attempts at mindfulness have been unsuccessful precisely because of my concentration problems, so I'm not sure how successful this is going to be as a cure for them. Seems like a catch-22. But I'll definitely take a look, thanks.
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  #23  
Old 25-11-2019, 12:53 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Jyotir/Altair, I appreciate your responses, but I'm still not sure you understand what I'm getting at. The goal is not to experience anything supernatural. I really don't care about that.

I've been on a spiritual path now for over 2 years (Christian path for many more before that). I've tried just about everything. All of the metrics by which one could measure success or failure in the spiritual path have not budged one bit. Whether it be self-love, self-respect, self-confidence, control of emotions, love, finances, whatever. This is what leads me to suspect that I'm on a "spiritual abandonment" path.

As for seeing guides and angels and whatever else people might be assuming that I'm referring to, I only mentioned those as illustration, since others who have been on this path for a much shorter time than me have had various experiences with this. I don't even believe in guides nor angels so I'd honestly prefer not to see them. Of course ultimately yes I am seeking enlightenment, but I'm not shocked that hasn't happened within 2 years - I'm just concerned that I am exactly where I started.
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  #24  
Old 25-11-2019, 12:58 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobi
As far as I know, all manner of experiences are possible during the expansion of consciousness, with or without "religion".

What you describe sounds rather like the "Dark Night of the Soul", a common experience on many paths, at a certain level of learning.
However, it is not a permanent state, though could possibly last for some time.

Thanks for your reply. It really doesn't fit my understanding of the dark night. I take the dark night as the temporary removal of all spiritual consolations following a period of growth and solace.

I've not had the growth nor the consolations to begin with, so I really don't think it can be that.
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  #25  
Old 25-11-2019, 08:59 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Jyotir/Altair, I appreciate your responses, but I'm still not sure you understand what I'm getting at. The goal is not to experience anything supernatural. I really don't care about that.

I've been on a spiritual path now for over 2 years (Christian path for many more before that). I've tried just about everything. All of the metrics by which one could measure success or failure in the spiritual path have not budged one bit. Whether it be self-love, self-respect, self-confidence, control of emotions, love, finances, whatever. This is what leads me to suspect that I'm on a "spiritual abandonment" path.

As for seeing guides and angels and whatever else people might be assuming that I'm referring to, I only mentioned those as illustration, since others who have been on this path for a much shorter time than me have had various experiences with this. I don't even believe in guides nor angels so I'd honestly prefer not to see them. Of course ultimately yes I am seeking enlightenment, but I'm not shocked that hasn't happened within 2 years - I'm just concerned that I am exactly where I started.
"The temple of the most high begins with the body which houses our life, the essence of our existence. Africans are in bondage today because they approach spirituality through religion provided by foreign invaders and conquerors. We must stop confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a set of rules, regulations and rituals created by humans, which was suppose to help people grow spiritually. Due to human imperfection religion has become corrupt, political, divisive and a tool for power struggle. Spirituality is not theology or ideology. It is simply a way of life, pure and original as was given by the Most High of Creation. Spirituality is a network linking us to the Most High, the universe, and each other…”

Haile Selassie


You've mentioned the metrics by which one could measure but whose metrics are they? Who decides? Is the Spiritual Path any different to a regular Path, and if so how? Did you have expectations as to how long it might take you to reach enlightenment? You said you weren't shocked that it hasn't happened within two years so there must have been an expectation there in the first place.

You've also mentioned "Spiritual abandonment" in your OP, and that's what speaks the volumes because I'm assuming it's a Catholic teaching. How many more Catholic teachings underpin your framework of beliefs?

From what I can gather it seems as though you're making comparisons against external standards that don't really exist. This is YOUR Path and it's about your time and your speed, and there's nothing to compare it to. As Matt Khan has said, what you have to figure out is why you wanted it this way because this is what you have agreed to as your Life's Purpose. Your ARE your Life's Purpose.

The real question is what do you personally went to get out of Spirituality? From what I can see Spirituality is something very external to you and something you compare yourself by, but if what Haile Selassie says is true and your Spirituality is your connection to yourself? Sometimes people look to Spirituality because the grass is greener on the other side and they seldom address the real issues - themselves. And sometimes, Spirituality is not the answer but the distraction.

Everything you're looking for - self-love, self-respect.... - is internal and you have to deal with the internal first and foremost, 'dismantle' the current paradigm that's being a barrier to you achieving your goals. Enlightenment doesn't grow too well on ground that isn't conducive to its growth. Self-Love doesn't come too easily when you don't like yourself very much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
Of course, I don't seek apparitions nor any sort of spiritual experience for its own sake, but simply to get answers/guidance for my own life's purpose.
As Matt Khan said, what you have to do is work out why you wanted it this way. You ARE your Life's Purpose. The Spiritual Path is not the Path to Spirituality but the Path to yourself - poetically this is a Journey to Self. It's about your experiences and your relationship with yourself, and the external versus the internal. As Hailie Selassie says, the connections to yourself and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
I just want to move forward in my physical and spiritual life and hopefully attain some degree of peace.
Which isn't going to happen if you don't like yourself very much. For some people Spirituality comes easy because they already have all the things you're looking for - self-Love, self-respect... - but when you're at odds with yourself it's very difficult. You are the basis for your Spirituality so if you're at odds with yourself then you'll be at odds with the outside world. And from what I can see from what you've said your Spirituality is based on making comparisons to external sources - what you consider criteria for Spiritual achievement or what others have achieved.

You are not in Spiritual abandonment and frankly for someone in the position you are in it's not just a limiting belief, it's actually 'programming' your paradigm. Words have power. Do you actually feel abandoned? You are not abandoned, "out of resonance" is the phrase I would use because you are very unsettled with yourself, and if you are unsettled with yourself then you'll be out of resonance with everything else. Once you come more into alignment with yourself - when you begin to stop hating yourself - then the Universe can align better with you and the synchronicities can occur.

You don't have an ancestral curse neither, that's superstitious nonsense. If anything you have something that you have decided to express into this Life as a way of either healing or coming to terms with, as to what I don't want to hazard a guess because that's a long way down this road.
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  #26  
Old 25-11-2019, 01:41 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
I appreciate your responses, but I'm still not sure you understand what I'm getting at. The goal is not to experience anything supernatural. I really don't care about that.

I've been on a spiritual path now for over 2 years (Christian path for many more before that). I've tried just about everything. All of the metrics by which one could measure success or failure in the spiritual path have not budged one bit. Whether it be self-love, self-respect, self-confidence, control of emotions, love, finances, whatever. This is what leads me to suspect that I'm on a "spiritual abandonment" path.

As for seeing guides and angels and whatever else people might be assuming that I'm referring to, I only mentioned those as illustration, since others who have been on this path for a much shorter time than me have had various experiences with this. I don't even believe in guides nor angels so I'd honestly prefer not to see them. Of course ultimately yes I am seeking enlightenment, but I'm not shocked that hasn't happened within 2 years - I'm just concerned that I am exactly where I started.
Thank you for clarifying who may not be understanding!

Meanwhile I’ll point out (again) that what you call
Quote:
“all of the metrics by which one could measure success or failure”
are simply arbitrarily rationalized assignments, reasoned impositions, expectations, and demands of specific formal and temporal results - makes no difference whether the expected result is seeing angels or “self-respect”. All of the previous do not and cannot work as a legitimate model of yoga/sadhana/spiritual practice, and are therefore largely irrelevant as reference in real spiritual life.

There is a huge difference between a subjective transformation and an objective expectation.

The former is the essence of true spiritual reorientation and continuance of progression; the latter is the old way of limited and limiting ego/desire-mind. This migration from adherence to that which is becoming obsolete - revealed by contrast in awakening (what awakening is) ==> to what is truly effective in spiritual terms which is a completely different orientation, takes time and practice to even 'see' it; the possibilities of it, let alone adopt it, let alone have it become consistent in the being.

You’ll see much discussion on this site, less about the practical aspects of making this transition, but rather, about the projected fears and rationalizations of why adherence to the obsolete paradigms, orientations, and practice of ego-mind is somehow necessary and represents real spirituality - which is false. And those falsehoods are represented by fearful false narratives - like anal fixations about toilet training, fear of poverty, lack of 'control' (or the illusion of what that control represents to someone per their narrative).

This is mostly from fear of letting go of the known, from unrecognized death/separation anxiety (mine, or mummy/daddy), doubt about what is available (as often clearly demonstrated by episodes of awakening) but rejected intellectually, denying and avoiding the newer orientation and higher principles which are unfamiliar, uncomfortable and therefore for many, very disconcerting. Even faith is seen as suspect because it simply cannot be evaluated by the normal intercession of rational concrete mind which has no capacity to do so. So there is a lot of rationalized denial and rejection of all things truly spiritual because it seems like too much sacrifice of apparent control and reward resulting in a projected fear of various forms of impotence. So of course novices opt for a reasoned complacency and the exclusive elevation of conventional bourgeois material values comforts and ethical social cohesion (that promotes the former) - rather than face or surrender to the unknown higher but unfamiliar principles within (which btw are not necessarily antithetical to the previous - they just supersede it). This is a common mistake of transition, or it is itself the transition, which can devour many years of a budding spiritual life.

If there isn’t a patient sincere devotion to, invocation of, surrender to higher principle and sincere patient practice - it then becomes or seems to be more of a 'business transaction' that’s 'coming up short' - which is what the OP and others often describe. Two years is the mere blink of an eye in spiritual terms. Try 30 years of sincere patient persistent application and then see what the real results are.


~ J

Last edited by Jyotir : 25-11-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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  #27  
Old 25-11-2019, 03:43 PM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyotir
Very simply, in spiritual practice there are periods of preparation and assimilation that are often unconscious while they are happening, but become clarified as to significance in retrospect.

Very true and exactly my experience. I never fully realized where the past ten years delving deep into consciousness content and eight years of mostly secular meditation practice would lead until it smacked me upside the head, figuratively speaking. In retrospect it's quite clear the pump was being primed.
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  #28  
Old 26-11-2019, 12:15 AM
paragon paragon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Everything you're looking for - self-love, self-respect.... - is internal and you have to deal with the internal first and foremost, 'dismantle' the current paradigm that's being a barrier to you achieving your goals. Enlightenment doesn't grow too well on ground that isn't conducive to its growth. Self-Love doesn't come too easily when you don't like yourself very much.

....

Which isn't going to happen if you don't like yourself very much. For some people Spirituality comes easy because they already have all the things you're looking for - self-Love, self-respect... - but when you're at odds with yourself it's very difficult. You are the basis for your Spirituality so if you're at odds with yourself then you'll be at odds with the outside world.

HARD AGREE.

I think self-love is the biggest issue here. I think if I were able to cultivate self-love then pretty much everything else I mentioned would follow. So, essentially what I'm trying to figure out here is why my self love has not budged one nanometre since I started doing this work over 2 years ago.

And no, Christian beliefs no longer underpin my thinking - that's why I wanted to know if this concept existed outside of Christianity. If it doesn't then most likely I will have no time for it. Matt Kahn has mentioned it in passing, however, so it appears that this concept may not be exclusively Christian after all.

I kind of regret asking this question. Receiving the answers feels like walking into a room where twenty people are shouting twenty different answers at you at the same time, some in different languages. The more I search for answers, the more complicated and confusing it gets.
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  #29  
Old 27-11-2019, 09:50 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Originally Posted by paragon
HARD AGREE.

I think self-love is the biggest issue here. I think if I were able to cultivate self-love then pretty much everything else I mentioned would follow. So, essentially what I'm trying to figure out here is why my self love has not budged one nanometre since I started doing this work over 2 years ago.

And no, Christian beliefs no longer underpin my thinking - that's why I wanted to know if this concept existed outside of Christianity. If it doesn't then most likely I will have no time for it. Matt Kahn has mentioned it in passing, however, so it appears that this concept may not be exclusively Christian after all.

I kind of regret asking this question. Receiving the answers feels like walking into a room where twenty people are shouting twenty different answers at you at the same time, some in different languages. The more I search for answers, the more complicated and confusing it gets.
That's pretty much nailed it because it is all about you/the individual. What people don't want to realise is that often good old human nature is the main driving force, not Spirituality and that is what is behind you being a Catholic and coming here to find answers. Once you begin to understand and change the 'foundations' so many things start dropping out of the sky.

You are the answer looking for the question, and finding the right questions - NOT answers - is key. So from a Life's Purpose perspective you chose this Path as Spirit so now you need to work out what it you chose to experience - which is what you're experiencing now. What can often happen is that we lose ourselves along the way and feel like victims. Nothing happens TO us, everything happens BECAUSE of us.

Have a look at the Michael Teachings and in particular Soul Ages. Many in here tend to shun them because technically the Soul doesn't have an age as such, but it can bring certain understandings. I think you'll find what you're looking for there.

I'm not going to give you the answers because you have to find your own questions.
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  #30  
Old 27-11-2019, 12:34 PM
Miss Hepburn Miss Hepburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paragon
I've been on a spiritual path now for over 2 years (Christian path for many more before that). I've tried just about everything.

All of the metrics by which one could measure success or failure in the spiritual path have not budged one bit.
Whether it be self-love, self-respect, self-confidence, control of emotions, love, finances, whatever.

This is what leads me to suspect that I'm on a "spiritual abandonment" path.
..
(Very smart people here as usual, love this place!)

Soo, I just saw this thread aaand actually read each post! I don't usually do that - I dive right in
reading the first post often not to be influenced ..then clean up my mess later.
But now I see, 1. You have a great sense of humor -that's always needed!
2. You don't want much - always a plus!
I mean is some self-confidence really asking too much? Um, no.
I mean, confidence = happiness.

When people say they have tried everything I always laugh because truly everything is infinite! Pls, take no offense.
Darnnit, that ADHD is a bear. Makes that still, quiet, calm place hard to achieve.
And your honest thread asking about How do we develop faith is a good one.

I've learned something this life - 'We get what we need' - so those people
that get born to wealth or poverty,
those that get Divine experiences
or never have them are getting exactly what they need!

Sounds amazing, doesn't it? We are always getting what we're supposed to be experiencing (!) -- The abusive dad,
the horrible brother, loss of that job, the dent in the parking lot, the angel coming to us, Mom dying when we're just 8,
finding the $50 bill...I mean everything.

The person born blind or with Down's Syndrome in a family of 6 kids - purposely chose that life in the Pre-birth Agreement - why?
To help her Soul Family to learn compassion and selflessness to advance the entire group of selfish losers. Kidding. ;)

In other words, Nothing is exactly as it seems - the blind or Down's Syn person we may pity is a very advanced soul...maybe.
You easily could have been a successful, wealthy, happy man in a past life -
But, this time around you may have needed to be this spiritually abandoned person that you are now.
All to balance and round out your entire being..maybe you need to learn humility, maybe how to crawl out of a pit ...maybe
you made fun of people just like you are now, so here you are to learn, (not as a punishment, to learn).

Oh, did you ever see the movie Doctor Strange, 2016?
In order for Dr. S to get his head outta his butt, to reach his potential -
The Master stuck him

alone on Mt. Everest where a person could die in less than a minute in that
severe cold.
We are given what we neeeeeed to grow.

Grow to what? Everything you ever wanted to be, your destiny ---who
you were meant to be - who you will be - who you already are.

You probably think Jesus was a great master, as I do.
Generally, people that walk on water - we should listen to. Agreed?
So, take one of the things he said to do, just one you like and simply do it...
do it with conviction and determination...see how it changes things.
Here are dome things he said
to do and I threw in some things the Lord or Paul said to do also...cuz I've done them and they work:
Do not worry
Be not afraid
Give me your burdens
Cast your cares
Ask, believe receive
Delight in the Lord Ps 37
Be anxious for nothing Phil 4:6
Seek the Kingdom of Heaven first
You do not have cuz you have not asked. James?
Know and understand me - Jer 9
I will give him perfect peace who stays his mind on me - Isaiah
Acknowledge him in all your ways- Proverbs 3
Focus on the things above and not the things on the earth Col 3:2

Pick one - study it, research it, contemplate it, digest it, think on it, practice it with
sincere intent for 2 solid weeks...observe what the mind does - it does not want you to do any of these.
But, like placing the needle back into the groove when it skips - gently place your attention back on the one you picked.(Not 2)
Do not stop after a couple days - 2 weeks.
Rem each one works....wonders, like magic!

Or not. A lot of suggestions - just do what feels good to you.
But, what you're doing isn't working - so trying something is a good thing..
and sticking with it.




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"Prepare yourself for the coming astral journey of death by riding daily in a balloon of divine perception.
Through delusion you are perceiving yourself as a bundle of flesh and bones...Meditate unceasingly,
that you quickly behold yourself as the Infinite Essence"
~~Lahiri Mahasaya, the guru of Yogananda's guru

I have no scientific evidence for anything I say.
Better to PM me if you want me to see a post to me. I miss a lot.







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