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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

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  #21  
Old 08-11-2012, 11:38 PM
Yamah
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I think it's tragic how people read their own ideas into a text without bothering to learn the proper interpretations. I highly suggest, NIRVANA, that if you are truly interested in learning the truth and not just interested in regurgitating the complaints and criticisms of ignorants then you should look up some authoritative commentaries on any verses you find troubling. The answers may surprise you.

If you would like to learn more I would be very happy to recommend some texts to you, or if you give me some verses or passages that you find troubling I can search through some major or even obscure commentaries to find you some responses. If, however, you are not willing to learn but just wish to continue your ignorant regurgitations then I wish you well and pray you find something to love, not just something to hate.
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  #22  
Old 09-11-2012, 12:48 AM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamah
I think it's tragic how people read their own ideas into a text without bothering to learn the proper interpretations. I highly suggest, NIRVANA, that if you are truly interested in learning the truth and not just interested in regurgitating the complaints and criticisms of ignorants then you should look up some authoritative commentaries on any verses you find troubling. The answers may surprise you.

If you would like to learn more I would be very happy to recommend some texts to you, or if you give me some verses or passages that you find troubling I can search through some major or even obscure commentaries to find you some responses. If, however, you are not willing to learn but just wish to continue your ignorant regurgitations then I wish you well and pray you find something to love, not just something to hate.
Yes but who's interpretation ??.
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  #23  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:21 AM
Yamah
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When learning any book it is first worthwhile to ask the author of its correct interpretation. If the author is unavailable then it is best to ask those the author chooses to convey his intentions. Torah is God's work and the Jewish people are those He chose to safeguard it. Thus, before anything else, it is probably best to ask for a traditional Jewish interpretation.
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  #24  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:53 AM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamah
When learning any book it is first worthwhile to ask the author of its correct interpretation. If the author is unavailable then it is best to ask those the author chooses to convey his intentions. Torah is God's work and the Jewish people are those He chose to safeguard it. Thus, before anything else, it is probably best to ask for a traditional Jewish interpretation.
So does all Jews agree with the very same interpretation ?.
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  #25  
Old 09-11-2012, 02:02 AM
Yamah
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you know very well the answer to that question, having been trolling this forum for some time.
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  #26  
Old 09-11-2012, 02:42 AM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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Originally Posted by Yamah
you know very well the answer to that question, having been trolling this forum for some time.
Don't be silly, I am not trolling, I am just inquiring, I have an inquiring mind, I do it with everything I am told is true, I don't just except any old thing, no matter where it comes from.
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2012, 03:06 AM
Dawn1976 Dawn1976 is offline
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Well, I've read the bible in context. For 9 straight years I studied it, read the Hebrew texts, studied Hebrew words, studied Greek, studied translations, etc. As a former Christian, I can say that the God of the Old Testament is not the prime creator of the universe.

There is no justification for the violent and merciless slayings of innocent people, ordered at the hands of an "all loving God."

Women were treated as property. The life of an infant girl was worth less than an infant boy. A woman was stoned to death if she was not a virgin on her wedding night. Oh, but if she was raped, then no worries - because she was usually forced to marry her rapist, so he wouldn't expect her to be a virgin.

But men were allowed to have sex outside of marriage (and before marriage) - the only exception was that the woman had to be single and not 'belong' to another man.

Women could be bought and sold into sex slavery. Although it's not called 'sex slave' in the bible. It's called 'female servant,' and the master was allowed to have children with his female servant - hence a sex slave.

In one battle, men were allowed to take the virgin women of their enemies as their own wives, but the pregnant women, and their children, and married women of their enemies, were to be killed.

The true creator of the universe, or "prime creator" as I like to call it, is one of love. There is no demonstration of love based on the characteristics of the God of the OT.

It's probably more like the Sumerians described in their texts: several creator Gods existed and ruled over mankind. Enki, Enlil, and their siblings, all worshipped as the God of the universe - but they were not.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2012, 03:10 AM
psychoslice psychoslice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn1976
Well, I've read the bible in context. For 9 straight years I studied it, read the Hebrew texts, studied Hebrew words, studied Greek, studied translations, etc. As a former Christian, I can say that the God of the Old Testament is not the prime creator of the universe.

There is no justification for the violent and merciless slayings of innocent people, ordered at the hands of an "all loving God."

Women were treated as property. The life of an infant girl was worth less than an infant boy. A woman was stoned to death if she was not a virgin on her wedding night. Oh, but if she was raped, then no worries - because she was usually forced to marry her rapist, so he wouldn't expect her to be a virgin.

But men were allowed to have sex outside of marriage (and before marriage) - the only exception was that the woman had to be single and not 'belong' to another man.

Women could be bought and sold into sex slavery. Although it's not called 'sex slave' in the bible. It's called 'female servant,' and the master was allowed to have children with his female servant - hence a sex slave.

In one battle, men were allowed to take the virgin women of their enemies as their own wives, but the pregnant women, and their children, and married women of their enemies, were to be killed.

The true creator of the universe, or "prime creator" as I like to call it, is one of love. There is no demonstration of love based on the characteristics of the God of the OT.

It's probably more like the Sumerians described in their texts: several creator Gods existed and ruled over mankind. Enki, Enlil, and their siblings, all worshipped as the God of the universe - but they were not.
Yes i agree, and it puzzles me why anyone would want to follow this horrible book, but as i have you will be called Troll for sharing what you have shared.
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2012, 04:58 AM
Yamah
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psycho: Being that you do not contribute facts or arguments, merely insults and snide comments, makes you a troll. We have been over how I feel about your non-input in the past and I don't want to repeat myself on this issue. I never name-call any who make actual statements worthy of discussion, as Dawn has. Please don't put words into my mouth it is not appreciated. I will not respond to your next post, which will most likely be more of the same.

Dawn:

There is no justification for the violent and merciless slayings of innocent people, ordered at the hands of an "all loving God."
Most certainly not, and I'm glad you used the word 'innocent' in your statement. Innocence is, however, difficult to determine by mortals which is why we must go through a rigorous process of judgement before a potential execution. Divine Decree is exempt from this process as God is fully capable of making full and correct judgement of a person's worth and innocence. If He says someone is worthy of death then who are we to argue?

Women were treated as property.
Now this is not true. Neither women nor slaves are treated as property. There are some overlapping laws between ownership and slavery but none between ownership and marriage. For example, property can be sold; women cannot be sold but rather must marry of their own volition. Even an arranged marriage and forced marriages such as by rape victims must be agreed upon by the woman or else it can't be completed (this law isn't mentioned explicitly from the text but is explained in the Gemara in detail; a good example of why learning and assuming on your own is perilous). Another example is that property can be used however the owner sees fit, while the man has certain contractual obligations to his wife, such as keeping her happy, satisfied and comfortable. In fact the marriage contract is mostly about what the man must do for his wife and very little is said about what the woman must do for her husband. If anything we should say that it's unfair for the man.

The life of an infant girl was worth less than an infant boy.
Not sure to what you are referring. Are you referring to the value of infant slaves? If so then it's based on the amount of physical labour they can perform. If not - please let me know where I can find the verse/passage/law to which you are refering.


A woman was stoned to death if she was not a virgin on her wedding night. Oh, but if she was raped, then no worries - because she was usually forced to marry her rapist, so he wouldn't expect her to be a virgin.
I addressed this point in an earlier post.



But men were allowed to have sex outside of marriage (and before marriage) - the only exception was that the woman had to be single and not 'belong' to another man.
Untrue. Men are not allowed to have relations out of wedlock either. Leviticus 19:29 “‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness."

Women could be bought and sold into sex slavery. Although it's not called 'sex slave' in the bible. It's called 'female servant,' and the master was allowed to have children with his female servant - hence a sex slave.
A female servant is a female servant. There is no subtext. Earlier in Leviticus 19 it mentions that it is forbidden to have relations with a slave that is promised to another. It is unmentioned what would be the law for one who has relations with a woman not promised to another. I believe the law is that if this happens the man is to marry the woman and/or free her immediately... I don't remember this one so well but I can look it up if you'd like.

In one battle, men were allowed to take the virgin women of their enemies as their own wives, but the pregnant women, and their children, and married women of their enemies, were to be killed.
I don't remember this one so clearly. Can you remind me where I can find this story?

The true creator of the universe, or "prime creator" as I like to call it, is one of love. There is no demonstration of love based on the characteristics of the God of the OT.
Love is not showering a person with kisses and saying 'there there'. Love is ensuring that another can be the best possible version of him or her self. The God that is always with us is not a God who gives us everything that we want. This is evidenced by the fact that we don't always get what we want. When it needs to happen, God allows or even urges that cars crash, bridges collapse, earthquakes rumble, tsunamis destroy coasts, etc. Everything that happens in this world is God. He is not a pushover. He is not happy when we do bad things. He is willing to purge individuals or groups from our midst if it is necessary for our betterment. He still loves us, of course. A parent doesn't love his child less when forced to enact a grounding or a spanking for the child's correction. No parent enjoys punishing a child but sometimes it is necessary. Don't forget that God is bigger than us; He thinks and acts on a much larger scale than we little individuals can conceive.

Don't take my word for all of this; open your eyes and look around. In this world, all is God... and in this world we can find some seemingly terrible things.
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  #30  
Old 09-11-2012, 11:42 AM
Quagmire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn1976
It's probably more like the Sumerians described in their texts: several creator Gods existed and ruled over mankind. Enki, Enlil, and their siblings, all worshipped as the God of the universe - but they were not.

I believe that to be true. I have a friend that relayed something to me from a conversation he had with the primeval god Phanes and he said that in the start of the universe there were many gods who shifted between ruling. When it came to Yahweh he did not want to give up his rule and thus started somekind of strife between him and the other gods. Think it was kind of that way the story went.
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