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  #31  
Old 05-11-2018, 01:16 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesboy
From the Secret Supreme.


The second state is called pralayakala. This is the state of
negation, where the whole world is negated. And the one who
resides in this world of negation is called pralayakala
pramatri, the observer of the pralayakala state. And this
pramatri, this perceiver, does not experience the state of this
voidness because it is actually the state of unawareness. This
state would be observed at the time of murcchii, when one
becomes comatose, which is like unnatural and heavy sleep,
like deep sleep devoid of dreams. And the observer,
pralayakala pramatri, resides in that void unawareness.

These two states function in the state of individuality, not in
the state of your real nature. These are states of worldly people,
not spiritual aspirants.

In jiigrat, wakefulness, the individual subjective body is
traveling in the world of objectivity (prameya), which comprises
the world of elements, names, forms, words, and sounds.
Here, it loses consciousness of its subjectivity and becomes
one with the objective world. In svapna, the dreaming state, the
individual subjective body travels in the impressions
(samskiiras) of the objective world. Here, it also loses the
awareness of its subjective consciousness. It takes hold of
these impressions and becomes one with the world of impres.
sions. In SU!fupti, deep dreamless sleep, it has entered a state of
complete void (sunya). If it was previously traveling in the
world of objectivity in the waking state, then upon entering
deep sleep, it loses consciousness of this objectivity and also of
its subjectivity. If it was previously traveling in the world of
impressions in the dreaming state, then upon entering deep
sleep, it loses consciousness of these impressions. In deep
sleep, it is no longer aware of anything. The impressions of the
objective world remain but these are as if dead. When it again
returns from the state of deep sleep, these impressions, which
were seemingly dead, again come to life. And when, by the
. grace of a master, this subjective body enters into subjective
consciousness with full awareness, and maintaining μnbroken
awareness becomes fully illumined in its own Self, this is
called the fourth state, turya. And when this individual subjective
body takes a firm hold of turya and does not lose consciousness
for even a moment, then it is established in that state
called turyiititii, above the fourth.

The Mandukya Upanishad, which is the shortest of the Upanishads, goes into that exactly but not to the detail that you just gave. That is one of the criticisms of the Mandukya Upanishad --- the lack of details. However, it serves as an excellent catalyst to meditation and discovery of what the words in the "Supreme Secret" quoted above can only attempt to describe.

Good post though !
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  #32  
Old 05-11-2018, 02:59 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
I don't think that there is really any "correct" way to say it since truth regarding this matter cannot be fully expressed in words.

One could, however, say that "the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state" though it is clearly NOT nothing since a whole dream universe can manifest from it. In addition, there are still subtle vibrations present or the body wouldn't still be there lying in bed or wherever. ()

In any case, since awareness persists in the deep sleep state BEFORE dream formation, it is clear that there is indeed something there despite the "appearance" of "nothingness".

At this point, words are obviously inadequate. How does one verbalize the appearance of nothingness that is really not nothing? Such discussions and meditations inevitably lead to silence.




"the not" - a subtle contradiction.
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  #33  
Old 06-11-2018, 12:46 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
"the not" - a subtle contradiction.

As you see it from your perspective.

As I've said before, words become inadequate at a certain point when one sees a situation from different perspectives.
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  #34  
Old 06-11-2018, 05:20 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
I don't think that there is really any "correct" way to say it since truth regarding this matter cannot be fully expressed in words.

One could, however, say that "the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state" though it is clearly NOT nothing since a whole dream universe can manifest from it. In addition, there are still subtle vibrations present or the body wouldn't still be there lying in bed or wherever. ()

In any case, since awareness persists in the deep sleep state BEFORE dream formation, it is clear that there is indeed something there despite the "appearance" of "nothingness".

At this point, words are obviously inadequate. How does one verbalize the appearance of nothingness that is really not nothing? Such discussions and meditations inevitably lead to silence.

Truth is an ongoing unfoldment as is the expression that flows from that. I think the more clear your realizations become, as an integrated process, the more clear the expression is felt and known. Not just known. The feeling level of integration can be felt through the realization so often the truth in that expression will be felt and acknowledged as a 'true source' for each moment and realization.

If we view ourselves as both, nothingness (emptiness of self)and everything (a creation alive and full of potential) there is always much that can be expressed, effortlessly through the awareness of yourself as both. It just depends where your sitting in the whole stream of all that aware and reflecting yourself realized to express all that. Silence is part of the whole stream, so naturally you can be lead there find nothing to express..;)

It reminds me of the process you often hear people speak, when they are realizing and expressing they 'know nothing' even as they 'know everything they know'. This is often the realization of your own emptiness of self expressing the nothingness, (blank canvas), which ultimately gives rise to its own creation from that point on, once you get back into creating and living again. (chop wood, carry water)
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  #35  
Old 07-11-2018, 06:58 AM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
I don't think that there is really any "correct" way to say it since truth regarding this matter cannot be fully expressed in words.

One could, however, say that "the nothingness appears to be our experience in the sleep state" though it is clearly NOT nothing since a whole dream universe can manifest from it. In addition, there are still subtle vibrations present or the body wouldn't still be there lying in bed or wherever. ()

In any case, since awareness persists in the deep sleep state BEFORE dream formation, it is clear that there is indeed something there despite the "appearance" of "nothingness".

At this point, words are obviously inadequate. How does one verbalize the appearance of nothingness that is really not nothing? Such discussions and meditations inevitably lead to silence.



Words can become impediments or obstacles to the experience itself, best to stay ' Silent ' sometimes
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  #36  
Old 08-11-2018, 01:28 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Words can become impediments or obstacles to the experience itself, best to stay ' Silent ' sometimes

Absolutely. There is truth in the oft-used expression, "Silence is golden".
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  #37  
Old 08-11-2018, 01:32 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
Truth is an ongoing unfoldment as is the expression that flows from that. I think the more clear your realizations become, as an integrated process, the more clear the expression is felt and known. Not just known. The feeling level of integration can be felt through the realization so often the truth in that expression will be felt and acknowledged as a 'true source' for each moment and realization.

If we view ourselves as both, nothingness (emptiness of self)and everything (a creation alive and full of potential) there is always much that can be expressed, effortlessly through the awareness of yourself as both. It just depends where your sitting in the whole stream of all that aware and reflecting yourself realized to express all that. Silence is part of the whole stream, so naturally you can be lead there find nothing to express..;)

It reminds me of the process you often hear people speak, when they are realizing and expressing they 'know nothing' even as they 'know everything they know'. This is often the realization of your own emptiness of self expressing the nothingness, (blank canvas), which ultimately gives rise to its own creation from that point on, once you get back into creating and living again. (chop wood, carry water)

Well put.

Very often, as you duly noted, one hears the wise responding that they "know nothing" even as they "know everything they know". My spiritual mentor often responded "I don't know" but there is an even deeper meaning to that "not knowing". When one is still ... somehow, without knowing ... one knows.

In addition, as you also duly noted, responses to life situations just happen "effortlessly". Your statement, "there is always much that can be expressed, effortlessly through the awareness of yourself", captures that insight quite adeptly.
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  #38  
Old 08-11-2018, 01:37 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still_Waters
As you see it from your perspective.

As I've said before, words become inadequate at a certain point when one sees a situation from different perspectives.




I get the message.
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  #39  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:58 PM
sky123 sky123 is online now
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[quote=Still_Waters]Absolutely. There is truth in the oft-used expression, "Silence is golden". [/QUOTE


Words are silver.
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