A Christian Dilemma

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

the golden rule is to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
i'm fairly convinced that a typical christian wouldn't appreciate being "saved"
from practicing their own faith.

If I were leading a life that would lead to my being condemned to eternity in Hell and someone else knew how I could avoid this fate I would want him to tell me. The golden rule demands that I tell others how they can be forgiven by putting their faith in Jesus Christ.

[jojo50]

Originally Posted by Honza

Obviously some Christians overdo this and use force. But that is not the norm. Most Christians allow other people to choose their own path....but perhaps they worry about their fate?

sadly NO Christians can't "force" ANYONE to become a "Christian". Jesus didn't force anyone to believe he was the Son of God did he? he didn't even try to make the false ministers of his time believe who he was. Jehovah God, (which NOW many have come to know. and who IS... the Father of Jesus), doesn't force anyone into worshipping him. though Jesus told his true followers, one must get to KNOW, the "ONLY TRUE GOD", as well as himself ,(John17:3). but it's urgent that we get close to Jehovah God and Jesus, it means our lives!

to become a "Christian" means we're trying to live as Jesus did, NOT living a debauched life. being called a "Christian" means NOTHING , if one is living fowl. Jesus said this concerning ALL "Christians" at (Matt. 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that do the will of my Father which is in heaven"). see also (Matt. 7:23), he doesn't claim them as his.

also if one seem to feel bugged by another concerning getting close to God so that they may be saved. Jehovah God doesn't want ANYONE destroyed ,(Ezek. 18:23). this is why he wants everyone to come to him and his Son. and it was Jesus who started sending people out to preach. and he was also doing it himself ,(Luke 10:1-3 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves).

in our time they are ONLY following Jesus orders which Jesus said to do right up to the "End" ,(Matt. 28:19,20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world). if one is "overdoing it", it's because as you stated basically. they want others to live as they want to live. as do Jesus and Jehovah God wants. again, it means our lives. peace

[Honza]

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes I asked a similar question previously to someone who said ' you will be forgiven ' but didn't know by who

I think the answer here is to be forgiven by the WHOLE and not just ones own self. To be forgiven by the starving children of Africa and the terrified victims of a war zone etc.

Ones own self cannot forgive on behalf of all the others. But God can. You will say there are no others; but I think that is just wishful thinking.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

I think the answer here is to be forgiven by the WHOLE and not just ones own self. To be forgiven by the starving children of Africa and the terrified victims of a war zone etc.

Ones own self cannot forgive on behalf of all the others. But God can. You will say there are no others; but I think that is just wishful thinking.

Why do people need to be forgiven by others?

[SaturninePluto]

Originally Posted by sky123

Why do people need to be forgiven by others?

Well they don't actually. In my opinion. If there is a need to be forgiven by others one perhaps should not be asking for forgiveness, if they do this out of need, if done out of need the asking of forgiveness is not truly meant is it? I am honestly asking. One should ask forgiveness of another because truly they want it. Needing it then is just a self soother, a pacifier, they need only rid themselves of guilt. Asking for forgiveness then, does not always go hand in hand with truly wanting to be forgiven.

At times though, there are those whom truly want and mean to have the forgiveness of another, and that Sky, is why they ask.

In my view it is not only God who is capable of forgiveness. Have you ever been apologized to? Did you forgive the person asking? We as people are capable of forgiveness, the bible teaches us this.

But it is God whom offers a new slate. I can not eradicate or in any way undue the mistakes of another, but if I am wronged and someone asks me for forgiveness, I will forgive them, and hold no unjustified anger toward them any further. But true too they would have lost my faithful trust. I could not trust them in the same way again. Next encounter with them I may be wary.

Yes though. I do not believe people need the forgiveness of another. If it is a need, it is in their own self interest and they truly do not want forgiveness, but rather want to be rid of any guilt. They bring upon themselves. Because someone may have wronged me does not imply I went out and attempted to make them feel guilt in the first place. Guilt tends to be an emotion of one's own making. No that is not to say the same thing as, people shouldn't feel remorse. That simply isn't so.

And in my view to finish to answer you, the reason people Want to be forgiven by another, is because truly they mean that they regret the harm they caused another human being.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

Jesus Blasphemed, by claiming to be God. I believe that in part had something to do with his execution.

Or at least, that may have possibly been what the pharisees were thinking at the time.

In Christian thought, there is another that is said, to approach the Jewish Temple yes? Stand within and claim to be God?

Instead of Jesus they call him the anti-Christ, anti Jesus, yes Jesus is said to have an enemy opposite to him, called the anti-Christ.

Point is Jesus by claiming to be God, actually blasphemed.

This is in part, "why" or the excuse for his execution.

Linear, "street view", thinking.
The old testament writings are validated by the Qumran Scrolls find. Especially the Book of Isaiah, wherein the most Messianic prophesies are found.

Bible Prophecy transcends the linear, in time and space.

In a number of places, the writings disregard time, which science tells us today is illusory. Sometimes citing future events in a past tense.

From the eternal perspective the future, in space/time, has already occurred.

Of course Christians are concerned about others welfare. Or should be.
I think though... about the parable of the seed sower who distributes the seed in liberal manner, who should do so with joy.
As it say's some seed fell on rocky ground and died out, or the ravens stole it. Some fell on good ground.

Either way, the sower has moved on in joy, and continuing to sow...
Keyword? "Joy".
Mathew 13:3, Luke 8:5

Many sow the seed, despite consequences of severe persecution.

www.persecution.com

www.persecution.org

[SaturninePluto]

Posted by Morpheus


Linear, "street view", thinking.

It isn't Linear street view thinking.

Time is not relevant to the thought of- If Jesus, claimed to be God, while not himself being God, he Blasphemed.

This is a truth. If he claimed to be God and wasn't, his words were blasphemy. That is not to say how I actually feel about it, I was not writing what I feel. I was writing from a place of wonder at if this is perchance what was going on in the minds of the people at the time, namely those whom persecuted Jesus. I have always been under the impression that their reasoning for their actions, was just that. They must have cited their reasons as He blasphemed. It is of course no reason, and their actions inexcusable. This historical past event within Christianity is a clear example of what happens when "We become the very evil, we abhor".

I was speaking of perhaps what was going on in the minds of his persecutors, Morpheus. My example of He blasphemed if he claimed to be God and was not. I very well know I wrote the word if in there. Didn't I? Do I need to go back?

The Anti-Christ, does the same thing, according to prophecy he claims to be God.

My point from My personal perspective, as a Christian follower, is that it is not well within common sense to go out and claim to be God. Even for Jesus this was so.

[sky]

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

Well they don't actually. In my opinion. If there is a need to be forgiven by others one perhaps should not be asking for forgiveness, if they do this out of need, if done out of need the asking of forgiveness is not truly meant is it? I am honestly asking. One should ask forgiveness of another because truly they want it. Needing it then is just a self soother, a pacifier, they need only rid themselves of guilt. Asking for forgiveness then, does not always go hand in hand with truly wanting to be forgiven.

At times though, there are those whom truly want and mean to have the forgiveness of another, and that Sky, is why they ask.

In my view it is not only God who is capable of forgiveness. Have you ever been apologized to? Did you forgive the person asking? We as people are capable of forgiveness, the bible teaches us this.

But it is God whom offers a new slate. I can not eradicate or in any way undue the mistakes of another, but if I am wronged and someone asks me for forgiveness, I will forgive them, and hold no unjustified anger toward them any further. But true too they would have lost my faithful trust. I could not trust them in the same way again. Next encounter with them I may be wary.

Yes though. I do not believe people need the forgiveness of another. If it is a need, it is in their own self interest and they truly do not want forgiveness, but rather want to be rid of any guilt. They bring upon themselves. Because someone may have wronged me does not imply I went out and attempted to make them feel guilt in the first place. Guilt tends to be an emotion of one's own making. No that is not to say the same thing as, people shouldn't feel remorse. That simply isn't so.

And in my view to finish to answer you, the reason people Want to be forgiven by another, is because truly they mean that they regret the harm they caused another human being.

' We as people are capable of forgiveness, the bible teaches us this.'

I don't think we need a bible to teach us this, people who have never read a bible can forgive.
I was thinking more about the need to be forgiven by others whom we have hurt. I personally think it's to ease our guilt, it makes us feel better. Most of us have a conscience which makes us feel remorse which is eased through forgiveness.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by sky123

Why do people need to be forgiven by others?

Others are a part of you. If you are to be forgiven completely then others will have to forgive you too. Self forgiveness is an island within the whole. God forgiveness is the whole.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

Others are a part of you. If you are to be forgiven completely then others will have to forgive you too. Self forgiveness is an island within the whole. God forgiveness is the whole.

It's guilt and remorse that needs the forgiveness. How would you know God has forgiven you?