A Christian Dilemma

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by Honza

Thinking about the Christian tendency to push their religion and try and convert others. Perhaps one of the main reasons for this is that Christians want others to be safe and go to heaven too.

To them it is like they have found the truth and the 'path' home and they want to share it with others. Don't you want everybody to be happy and 'go to heaven' too?

Obviously some Christians overdo this and use force. But that is not the norm. Most Christians allow other people to choose their own path....but perhaps they worry about their fate?

I think Christianity as a religious dogmatic entity is different from Christianity as a representation of the Spirit and Consciousness of Jesus Christ and His teachings. It is noticeable and palpable when being in the presence of someone who is embodying the Spirit and Love of Christ as oppose someone who may claim to be a Christian but is missing the most crucial element of Spiritual understanding and Loving Compassion. Wishing for others to be rescued from the illusion of being separate from God is a very noble cause indeed. However, one must first remove the plank from their own eyes in order to assist their brothers and sisters to see clearly. "Saving" a Soul is far more profound and transcendent than simply having someone ideologically believe in a name and a religious system. What often end up happening is that there are many who may mark the box of Christian on a census, yet they fail to grasp the living Christ and Kingdom of God that dwells eternally within their Souls. Instead, they cling to fear, judgement, and rigid ideology of the mind as perpetrated by oppressive dogmatic systems. However, fear NOT! God ALWAYS has a way, and the "Christians" who have been Spiritually dead and sleeping will certainly be jolted AWAKE by the Grace of the Divine. Wakey wakey! Let's all rejoice in the name of LOVE!!! :)

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by theophilus

If I were leading a life that would lead to my being condemned to eternity in Hell and someone else knew how I could avoid this fate I would want him to tell me. The golden rule demands that I tell others how they can be forgiven by putting their faith in Jesus Christ.

that first sentence amounts to "personal opinion"; i happen to agree with
that opinion, and tend to believe that all sane individuals would as well.
i don't see how that second sentence follows logically from the first.
1- the golden rule isn't a demand; it honors choice.
2- you'd need to ascertain that the person you're informing about 'forgiveness'
is willing to listen to your advice. [if you're unwilling to listen to others ideas,
you can't demand it of others (according to the Golden Rule).]

just my thoughts,
H:O:R:A:C:E

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

I think Christianity as a religious dogmatic entity is different from Christianity as a representation of the Spirit and Consciousness of Jesus Christ and His teachings. It is noticeable and palpable when being in the presence of someone who is embodying the Spirit and Love of Christ as oppose someone who may claim to be a Christian but is missing the most crucial element of Spiritual understanding and Loving Compassion. Wishing for others to be rescued from the illusion of being separate from God is a very noble cause indeed. However, one must first remove the plank from their own eyes in order to assist their brothers and sisters to see clearly. "Saving" a Soul is far more profound and transcendent than simply having someone ideologically believe in a name and a religious system. What often end up happening is that there are many who may mark the box of Christian on a census, yet they fail to grasp the living Christ and Kingdom of God that dwells eternally within their Souls. Instead, they cling to fear, judgement, and rigid ideology of the mind as perpetrated by oppressive dogmatic systems. However, fear NOT! God ALWAYS has a way, and the "Christians" who have been Spiritually dead and sleeping will certainly be jolted AWAKE by the Grace of the Divine. Wakey wakey! Let's all rejoice in the name of LOVE!!! :)

yes, yes that's exactly it
I wonder if part of the problem is the apostle Paul because he confuses me
I am sure he got many things right, but everything?
He never quotes any of Jesus's teachings just his view of Christ
I was watching a Jewish Rabbi critique Christianity and points out what a strange disciple Paul was according to Jewish student/teacher relationship
Normally the student constantly repeats the masters words, hardly daring to put their own thoughts in
I recon Paul hung around with the early Christian church and then went off in his own direction making adjustments along the way

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

It isn't Linear street view thinking.

Time is not relevant to the thought of- If Jesus, claimed to be God, while not himself being God, he Blasphemed.

This is a truth. If he claimed to be God and wasn't, his words were blasphemy. That is not to say how I actually feel about it, I was not writing what I feel. I was writing from a place of wonder at if this is perchance what was going on in the minds of the people at the time, namely those whom persecuted Jesus. I have always been under the impression that their reasoning for their actions, was just that. They must have cited their reasons as He blasphemed. It is of course no reason, and their actions inexcusable. This historical past event within Christianity is a clear example of what happens when "We become the very evil, we abhor".

I was speaking of perhaps what was going on in the minds of his persecutors, Morpheus. My example of He blasphemed if he claimed to be God and was not. I very well know I wrote the word if in there. Didn't I? Do I need to go back?

The Anti-Christ, does the same thing, according to prophecy he claims to be God.

My point from My personal perspective, as a Christian follower, is that it is not well within common sense to go out and claim to be God. Even for Jesus this was so.

No, it is linear "street view" thinking. Now your squirming, aren't you?

You wrote, "Point is, Jesus actually blasphemed." Didn't you? Go back and look if you like.

Perhaps you mistated, meaning to say they THOUGHT he was blaspheming. But He wasn't, was He. Look at the miracles He did before their eyes, also.

What is awesome and incredible, is how, as long prophesied through the ages... The Almighty used His enemies... to accomplish salvation for the whole world, and through the means which He established from very early on in Jewish history.
Namely, Atonement.

Think about it. How could He do that?

[SaturninePluto]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

No, it is linear "street view" thinking. Now your squirming, aren't you?

No.

You wrote, "Point is, Jesus actually blasphemed." Didn't you? Go back and look if you like.

Yes I have gone, and yes that is indeed what I had ended up typing.

Perhaps you mistated, meaning to say they THOUGHT he was blaspheming. But He wasn't, was He. Look at the miracles He did before their eyes, also.

I didn't mistake. I believe Jesus was a prophet of God. I am not certain that he was God himself. But yes I did misstate- as spiritted pointed out already- I head meant to say He blasphemed in the case he was not God. Still I was speaking not of my own personal feelings- which was that Jesus was a man, a prophet of God, I still was speaking from what I feel may have been the point of view going on in the heads of the persecutors at the time. In that sense that I didn't explain properly yes I mis-spoke- Stone me.

What is awesome and incredible, is how, as long prophesied through the ages... The Almighty used His enemies... to accomplish salvation for the whole world, and through the means which He established from very early on in Jewish history.
Namely, Atonement.

Think about it. How could He do that?

What I find amazing is many of the miracles performed by Jesus, and very much of his word rings true, after all he spoke to God. There is no denying- Jesus must have been quite an individual. But still, what was my point again? Not everyone seemed to think so. Hence his persecution.

The subject I brought up- was related to what I think may have been going on in the heads of the people at the time.

There isn't anything, linear or space time about it. Other then perhaps, let's see space and time exist and hence we do, and by the very fact of space and time therefore I breathe and type.


Just what are you trying to accomplish here Morpheus? That I misstated in my words? Applause. Brilliantly established. So stone me.

Semantics.

[barrynu]

Originally Posted by SaturninePluto

What I find amazing is many of the miracles performed by Jesus, and very much of his word rings true, after all he spoke to God. There is no denying- Jesus must have been quite an individual. But still, what was my point again? Not everyone seemed to think so. Hence his persecution.

The subject I brought up- was related to what I think may have been going on in the heads of the people at the time.

There isn't anything, linear or space time about it. Other then perhaps, let's see space and time exist and hence we do, and by the very fact of space and time therefore I breathe and type.


Just what are you trying to accomplish here Morpheus? That I misstated in my words? Applause. Brilliantly established. So stone me.

Semantics.

I understand you perfectly SaturninePluto as I like to put myself into the heads of people years ago to try understand their actions and thoughts.

Its also good to use this method in the here and now too.
Will you cast that first stone Morpheus? as you were invited to, or will you drop your stones?

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by barrynu

I understand you perfectly SaturninePluto as I like to put myself into the heads of people years ago to try understand their actions and thoughts.

Its also good to use this method in the here and now too.
Will you cast that first stone Morpheus? as you were invited to, or will you drop your stones?

Balogna. I was pointing out his errant statement, which it appears he admitted to. No stones to throw.

Regarding "linear". Yes, here we are, in time and space, and breathing as all the other organisms "here".
But in a real sense, it's a lie.
Our actual origins, and our actual situation, are apart from spacetime.
Something we will come to see when we depart. If not percieved before.

So as I said, many times in the Bible a future occurrance is spoken of in the past tense.
Again, from the eternal perspective, our future has already occurred.

Einstein - "Time and space are modes in which think, and not conditions in which we live,"