The ethical impact of eating Eggs?

[Altair]

Sapphirez stop hijacking ma thread!


Kiddin'

Originally Posted by Sapphirez

That makes me wonder why Buddhists think egg consumption is wrong when it's perfectly plausible to have unfertilized ones, and also why they think that stealing milk from cows is okay on the other hand.

Perhaps they were unaware that eggs could be unfertilized. It's pretty common to keep at least one rooster around and probably has always been.
In any case.. the excess in males in both animals is usually something that must be dealt with, and we should think about developing and/or applying technologies to favour female births in these animals.

[Sapphirez]

ohhh no I fear that involving technologies to promote female births would change the game of chickenhood and then we couldn't say there isn't cruelty involved.. unless you mean something like those Chinese gender day calendars or something simple and magical like that..


yeah Gem that is true sila is important for evolution and enlightenment. I guess that the issue lies in what the definition of that morality entails. for instance, If Buddhists or Vedicists do indeed treat their milking cows wonderfully and the cows just love being milked for extra milk after they have to feed their babies, well there is the matter of potential harm to the humans who are consuming the cows' milk.. because it is one of the most mucus forming and congestive food substances, to humans anyways since it's designed for cows.. so is that not cruelty to humans or themselves? Certainly apparently yogurt is an improvement over pure milk or cheeses etc., but still it is simply not a very healthful food when all is said and done, for humans that is.. And the issues that arise from consuming such an alien substance would also likely get in the way of ideal meditation practice, right?

but sorry I know that is not the point of your post or story.. I just want to read and enjoy the rest of what you wrote, but it's hard for me to ignore how they require muteness as to prevent harmful speech. Shouldn't they have faith in the peoples and their vows to be harmless? Isn't assuming the worse of them and thus restricting them a form of harming?

Nevermind that though, nah it doesn't seem unreasonable at all to expect people to be content with their selves and the simple offerings such as the veg meals. I know in modern society it would seem to be that way, but to us with a little more understanding (and you apparently with a lot more in such regards) it seems kind of awesome and normal, to just be left with your own self sans distractions and petty constraints of the world today. That's pretty cool you went through that. how long did you do it and how did you get into it?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Sapphirez

ohhh no I fear that involving technologies to promote female births would change the game of chickenhood and then we couldn't say there isn't cruelty involved.. unless you mean something like those Chinese gender day calendars or something simple and magical like that..


yeah Gem that is true sila is important for evolution and enlightenment. I guess that the issue lies in what the definition of that morality entails. for instance, If Buddhists or Vedicists do indeed treat their milking cows wonderfully and the cows just love being milked for extra milk after they have to feed their babies, well there is the matter of potential harm to the humans who are consuming the cows' milk.. because it is one of the most mucus forming and congestive food substances, to humans anyways since it's designed for cows.. so is that not cruelty to humans or themselves? Certainly apparently yogurt is an improvement over pure milk or cheeses etc., but still it is simply not a very healthful food when all is said and done, for humans that is.. And the issues that arise from consuming such an alien substance would also likely get in the way of ideal meditation practice, right?

but sorry I know that is not the point of your post or story.. I just want to read and enjoy the rest of what you wrote, but it's hard for me to ignore how they require muteness as to prevent harmful speech. Shouldn't they have faith in the peoples and their vows to be harmless?

Have you met people?

Isn't assuming the worse of them and thus restricting them a form of harming?

There are some risks involved in doing intensive meditation practice. I have seen some adverse events during my time there, and personally, I thought they were not taking their duty of care seriously enough. But one has to take the good with the bad, and I was happy there.

Nevermind that though, nah it doesn't seem unreasonable at all to expect people to be content with their selves and the simple offerings such as the veg meals. I know in modern society it would seem to be that way, but to us with a little more understanding (and you apparently with a lot more in such regards) it seems kind of awesome and normal, to just be left with your own self sans distractions and petty constraints of the world today. That's pretty cool you went through that. how long did you do it and how did you get into it?

I did a lot of retreats and a lot of service at the ashram. I used to go for 3 month at a time, and I have stayed for shorter times like for three week visits. I liked it and it was great. For now I have more material things to take care of, but I am still associated with the sangha and I will probably go back to do a few retreats one day.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Altair

Sapphirez stop hijacking ma thread!


Kiddin'

Perhaps they were unaware that eggs could be unfertilized. It's pretty common to keep at least one rooster around and probably has always been.
In any case.. the excess in males in both animals is usually something that must be dealt with, and we should think about developing and/or applying technologies to favour female births in these animals.

Basically, an egg could be a baby animal - compared to milk which never grows up. In practice there is no discussion at all. It's: No eggs. Thems the rulz! teehee

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Sapphirez

ohhh no I fear that involving technologies to promote female births would change the game of chickenhood and then we couldn't say there isn't cruelty involved.. unless you mean something like those Chinese gender day calendars or something simple and magical like that..

We've been tempering with domesticated plants and animals for thousands of years. How would female selection be a bigger ethical issue than selecting cows and chickens for the milk or eggs they produce? It seems less cruel to me, if you consider the fate of the male animals. We need to think about ways to improve the system.

Originally Posted by Gem

Basically, an egg could be a baby animal - compared to milk which never grows up. In practice there is no discussion at all. It's: No eggs. Thems the rulz! teehee

Yeah.. it sounds like a tradition thing. Changing customs doesn't sit well when there's established teachings based on sacred words.

[Sapphirez]

well I don't know what you mean by "technological intervention" but it is usually not a good thing for an animal or species.. so it depends what exactly you have in mind. if you want chickens to start popping pills or being injected with some sick serum or something so they stop producing males, well that sounds terrible and not just "playing God" but "playing Devil" but again I don't know what you have in mind. However there isn't a "problem" with chickens having too many male children, there is a problem with humans thinking they should eat the eggs because eggs are not even good for humans! So why would we go and interrupt their genome sequences or whatever just to make more female chickens which won't be good for the chicken species or the human species?

yes I am aware of how hybridized most plant foods we eat today are and it is unfortunate, albeit more delicious in many cases.. but plants are not the same as a chicken or a human, so meddling with them in modest ways is not comparable to nearly wiping out the male gender of an animal species! I don't know that much about plants, or animals, but I am in favor of getting heirloom varieties of foods when we can. hybrid versions are not as healthy, though obviously much more widely available.. it is amazing what humankind has done to transform nature already, and some of it may be for good, some for bad, but with the kind of creepy technology we have today I think it presents a terrifying horizon and hopefully you mean something relatively benign and innocent that you want done to chickens, but I don't know it just sounds awful to start making them mostly female and lose an entire gender, that just sounds so wrong.. how does it sound right to you??

[Altair]

Actually.. what I want is an end to large scale animal farming and chickens be put in gardens. If roosters can’t live together then some should be set free in the wild. This to me, is the best solution. Roosters may also actually live together and establish hierachy. Don’t let popular pit rooster fights cloud your views on the whole species. Chickens are very well behaved if raised properly, which usually does not happen.

When I say technology I’m thinking about a situation where gardens aren’t an option.. Of course this depends on our wants as consumers. But selecting for females would be ethically less harmful than sending most males to the slaughterhouse..

[Sapphirez]

I've seen footage and heard people talk about how smart and conscientious and cool chickens are.

yeah I've also seen footage of them dumping male chicks into grinders or disposing of them in garbage bags suffocating them on their way to dumpsters in factory farming..

All of this could be avoided if people stopped preying on poultry and faced the truth that their dead flesh nor their dead (or live) eggs are any good for them to consume.. they just cause us disease on top of all the other anguish. Humanity is foolish to use technology to do more asinine things, especially those against natural laws that exist for our benefit

[LibbyScorp]

I dont have much to add here...

But i stopped eating eggs for almost 2 years and recently started again. I love eggs. Damnit :( hot warm eggs in yer belly.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Altair

Actually.. what I want is an end to large scale animal farming and chickens be put in gardens. If roosters can’t live together then some should be set free in the wild. This to me, is the best solution. Roosters may also actually live together and establish hierachy. Don’t let popular pit rooster fights cloud your views on the whole species. Chickens are very well behaved if raised properly, which usually does not happen.

When I say technology I’m thinking about a situation where gardens aren’t an option.. Of course this depends on our wants as consumers. But selecting for females would be ethically less harmful than sending most males to the slaughterhouse..

I think we need to re-prioritise education so children learn how to grow things and look after chooks etc along the lines of permaculture gardening. I envisage school yards being permaculture gardens that largely self-sustain. Children could take excess food home to their families and the parents could be actively involved in this sort of 'food education' as well.


It would go a long way to establishing healthy eating patterns in the young ones as they learn the nutrient content of different foods, and also help to lift up the health of the whole community.