Bodhidharma's Definition of Zen

[bees]

Originally Posted by sky123

No I did not say a guru cannot help, I said that not everyone needs a teacher, big difference.
Be a light unto yourself...... The Buddha's Farewell

Actually, in truth, the Buddha did not say this as his "farewell".

Your highly selective and out of context use of words to convince everyone of your personal position is not supported by either Buddhist scripture or teacher, for example, Gautama Buddha, or Bodhidharma.

Quoting Gautama Buddha:

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"[58]

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

From: Lord Buddha: Maha-parinibbana Sutta

This forum might do well with some actual and real references, rather than people making things up according to personal preferences?

Addition: I'd also like to add that when Gautama instructed his disciples, these are disciples who had followed him for decades before that - sincere followers whom he had been instructing constantly. His advice (which is below) is in the context of continuing to learn, to persevere in the instructions he had shared through those multiple years, of overcoming sorrow and suffering (i.e. The Four Noble Truths). For those who HAVE overcome sorrow and suffering, and are fully liberated within the Buddhist context of ignorance and delusion, they have the teachings and Dhamma as their guide, and can be a lamp unto themselves. Keep in mind also the historical Gautama Buddha had many highly adept disciples during his years of teaching and this is an audience deeply immersed in years of teaching and training under their personal teacher (Gautama Buddha).

Context is critical for any teaching. Ergo, it is not to say that people do NOT need teachers, especially as he had spent countless years instructing his close disciples - that would obviously be ... to say the least and wrong to say the most obvious. FWIW.

*"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?

"When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....1-6.vaji.html

[Jyotir]

Excellent relevant contributions to the thread, bees.
T.y.

[bees]

You're welcome, I hate to see Buddhist teachings be so skewed. It's my bias. Thank you.

[sky]

Therefore, O Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves. Rely on yourselves, and do not rely on external help. Hold fast to the truth as a lamp. Seek salvation alone in the truth. Look not for assistance to any one besides yourselves.

"And how, Ananda, can a brother be a lamp unto himself, rely on himself only and not on any external help, holding fast to the truth as his lamp and seeking salvation in the truth alone, looking not for assistance to any one besides himself? Herein, O Ananda, let a brother, as he dwells in the body, so regard the body that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the body's cravings. While subject to sensations let him continue so to regard the sensations that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the sensations. And so, also, when he thinks or reasons, or feels, let him so regard his thoughts that being strenuous, thoughtful and mindful he may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the craving due to ideas, or to reasoning, or to feeling.

"Those who, either now or after I am dead, shall be lamps unto themselves, relying upon themselves only and not relying upon any external help, but holding fast to the truth as their lamp, and seeking their salvation in the truth alone, and shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they, Ananda, among my bhikkhus, who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be anxious to learn."

[kingfisher]

I heard it said somewhere that when we are ready the "master" will appear - in which case, alas, I am not "ready"...... Anyway, I tend to follow the Pure Land path, which is very egalitarian, at least in theory. Not a master in sight.

I also seem to remember a portion of the Theravada texts where Ananda said to the Buddha that Noble Friendship was half of the Holy Life. The Buddha corrected him......no, it was ALL of the Noble Life.

But texts are texts, and life is life. To be honest, I need all the help I can get and my heart is filled with gratitude for all those who have helped me in the past. By helping me see into my own nature? Who knows. I don't. Really.

[sky]

Originally Posted by beesliketoplay

Actually, in truth, the Buddha did not say this as his "farewell".

Your highly selective and out of context use of words to convince everyone of your personal position is not supported by either Buddhist scripture or teacher, for example, Gautama Buddha, or Bodhidharma.

Quoting Gautama Buddha:

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"[58]

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

From: Lord Buddha: Maha-parinibbana Sutta

This forum might do well with some actual and real references, rather than people making things up according to personal preferences?

Addition: I'd also like to add that when Gautama instructed his disciples, these are disciples who had followed him for decades before that - sincere followers whom he had been instructing constantly. His advice (which is below) is in the context of continuing to learn, to persevere in the instructions he had shared through those multiple years, of overcoming sorrow and suffering (i.e. The Four Noble Truths). For those who HAVE overcome sorrow and suffering, and are fully liberated within the Buddhist context of ignorance and delusion, they have the teachings and Dhamma as their guide, and can be a lamp unto themselves. Keep in mind also the historical Gautama Buddha had many highly adept disciples during his years of teaching and this is an audience deeply immersed in years of teaching and training under their personal teacher (Gautama Buddha).

Context is critical for any teaching. Ergo, it is not to say that people do NOT need teachers, especially as he had spent countless years instructing his close disciples - that would obviously be ... to say the least and wrong to say the most obvious. FWIW.

*"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?

"When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....1-6.vaji.html

Actually, in truth, the Buddha did not say this as his "farewell".

"Your highly selective and out of context use of words to convince everyone of your personal position is not supported by either Buddhist scripture or teacher, for example, Gautama Buddha, or Bodhidharma."

Isn't it ???? Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
Namaste, hugs, blessings, bows, can't remember the others

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by sky123

... you have Buddha's teachings, what more do you need.

Well self-realization, insights! But, I would say nothing as far as teachings or teachers. It is all there in Buddha's teachings. Doesn't really matter where you hear about it. Ultimately, you get it from yourself. Anybody can tell you there is an apple in your hand, but you have to see it. Yea you can worship the person who told you, make a statue of them, and write books about them and have ceremonies honoring them. If what they are pointing at is good, then it's good to spread the word and honor and pay respect to it. Of course in all of that is the danger people forget the point is to see the apple in their hands.

After enlightenment, did Buddha or Bodhidharma need a teacher? They had teachers, had in the past tense. So one could say they needed a teacher before they had insights into their true nature. After they clearly saw the path, they no longer needed a teacher. They and their experience then became their teacher, as well as everything they had learned from their teachers because everything we see, hear, and think is permanently a part of us.

#2. 不立文字 Furyû monji - No dependence upon words and letters;


Rabbit: "You need to dance!"

Bear: "Why?"

Rabbit: "It is fun, try it!"

Bear: "Ah yes it is!....can you teach me this tomorrow?"

Did Bear need a teacher to learn how to dance? Well Bear had a teacher show him how to dance. Did he need one? I don't know. Maybe he could have learned on his own if he saw some other people dancing. Now that Bear has learned he can dance, does he need a dance teacher? Need? I don't know. Maybe Bear needs reminding he can dance, maybe he doesn't. Bear is an individual with his own inclinations and interests and pursuits. Maybe he never dances again, or maybe he makes dancing his only interest. It is up to him. Maybe he dances happily alone in his room everyday or maybe he opens up a dancing school and teaches others how to dance all day long. Up to him. Maybe he stands on a soapbox in the park all day and tells others they need a dance teacher or maybe he stands in the park dancing until others join in.

[kingfisher]

When the Buddha was asked why he continued to meditate ( even though enlightened ) he said :- "out of compassion for future generations."

No reliance on words and letters?

A zen master who spoke only broken English was walking through his monastery with a newly enlightened westerner. At every statue of the Buddha the zen master would stop and bow deeply. The westerner looked on with a degree of disdain and eventually said:- "I say, now we are enlightened don't you think we are a bit above that sort of thing? Speaking for myself, I would just as soon spit at those statues as bow to them." To which the zen master said "OK. You spit, I bow."

[bees]

Originally Posted by sky123

Actually, in truth, the Buddha did not say this as his "farewell".

"Your highly selective and out of context use of words to convince everyone of your personal position is not supported by either Buddhist scripture or teacher, for example, Gautama Buddha, or Bodhidharma."

Isn't it ???? Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
Namaste, hugs, blessings, bows, can't remember the others

Oh love it, any more passive aggressive anger coming from the "lover" sky123 who constantly proclaims compassion but can't get past step 1?

The laughter from here is very genuine. Namaste, hugs, blessings, bows and whatever else you like to see in others. Thanks for this hearty, hearty laugh

[bees]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

When the Buddha was asked why he continued to meditate ( even though enlightened ) he said :- "out of compassion for future generations."

No reliance on words and letters?

A zen master who knew only broken English was walking through his monastery with a newly enlightened westerner. At every statue of the Buddha the zen master would stop and biw deeply. The westerner looked on with a degree of disdain and eventually said:- "I say, now we are enlightened don't you think we are a bit above that sort of thing? Speaking for myself, I would just as soon spit at those statues as bow to them." To which the zen master said "OK. You spit, I bow."

Thanks