Saltzman, Gill, Parsons - Free Will

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Charles

Thanks for the 2 replies. Anyone else want to risk a perspective?

I will risk it.

"Free Will" is the excuse the ego gives the conditioned mind to avoid the responsibility and the consequences of making poor lifestyle choices.

My own awareness allows me to see this for what it is.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Charles

I am a rank beginner in this Non-Dualism stuff, so please bear with me. Have been reading watching Tony Parsons (from space?), Nathan Gill - Already Awake, and Robert Saltzman - The 10,000 Things.

So much seems paradoxical and confusing, yet has a ring of truth from these gentlemen. That the I is an illusion, a fantasy of the mind, a being mesmerized, and that the I is apparently nothing more than arising conditioned thoughts, emotions that are ever changing. That the sense of Free Will, or agency, as I would describe it is an illusion, a story we tell ourselves to have a sense of security.

That if we become aware of the true nature of the I, we can awake to simply what is. See through the thought patterns of the arising I. That there is nothing we can do, no practice, to bring that realization about, because that striving is simply more action and empowering of the illusionary self getting Better some time in the future, which of course, does not exist.

With Saltzman, I get the feeling that this awareness is a radical acceptance of all that shows up, without choice. There is no choice, free will, or practice that will bring awakeness. The awakeness is already there, somehow, but unrecognized.

Thoughts? Pointers? Clarifications?

Hello Charles, welcome to the forum.

The free will issue is complicated - and having an intellectual understanding of this area will not bring peace so I would advise dropping that particular avenue of inquiry. If you believe that you’re a separate someone then it will seem disturbing to be told that you don’t have free will. When there is the realisation of no-separation the whole question collapses.

Realisation is not about becoming, it’s about realising (not just intellectually) that which is already the case. So striving to become something in the future is pointless. But it might just be the case that the shift in perception (realisation) corresponds with the thinning out of habitual thinking patterns and fixations with the past and future. So ‘practices’ which are more of a letting go than a doing may be conducive in this sense. But there are no formulas.

[Charles]

Thanks again for your input. It's been interesting experimentally taking on the world/self view of these teachings. I usually jump into new perspectives to test them out. Sort of thought/life experiments.

The first change I noticed was a lifting of judgement/guilt/shame, which is a pretty universal human condition. Feelings of not being "good enough", flawed, regrets over bad actions in the past. I struggled with this concept of our life in this world being just a natural, almost mechanically predetermined event. That we are not making life happen, as there is no real I, that this world is more like a movie unfolding with the I's being characters in this movie. And my consciousness/awareness being the observer. Not sure if this is how traditional Advaitists view life, but is how the neo-advaitists seem to view it.

Normally, my life has been very wrapped up in doing the right thing, being loving, etc. Not that I'm a great person or anything, but life has taught me that I prefer that kind of life, though fears, self advancement and agrandizement often get in the way of those ideals.

The effect of stepping back into the observer role and watching the self, vs being so invested in being good and right, etc, has made me calmer, less grasping, and less easily drawn into destructive thought patterns. Why be upset about the course of the world, my own life, etc when it is in reality likely a play that has been going on for eternity.

It feels like a very beneficial way to live. Kind of a no down side experiment to me. Probably partly because I'm retired and no longer striving in those ways, its easier to step back and sort of detach without economic or performance worries.

At one point, I even "imagined" a falling away of self in the middle of the night. Probably mostly the power of suggestion from reading watching these ne0-advaitists. As that experience did not last, and knowing myself, I doubt that that was a genuine experience of loss of self, but it hardly matters. What will be, will be.

I don't plan on straining myself in spiritual disciplines, as I think that can be a trap of trying to escape our present life. Another tricky catch 22. I have however been wanting to spend more time in silence, and in observing and listening, and that has felt good and productive of insight.

I will be reading the more traditional Advaic Vedanta book you recommended, as soon as I finish Saltzman, and some J. Krishnamurti. Once again, I appreciate your time in discussing these issues with me.

Golden Bay, New Zealand, eh? You lucky dog!!

[Charles]

It is So helpful to be hearing from others who have been following this path. Thank you all!

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Charles

The first change I noticed was a lifting of judgement/guilt/shame, which is a pretty universal human condition. Feelings of not being "good enough", flawed, regrets over bad actions in the past. I struggled with this concept of our life in this world being just a natural, almost mechanically predetermined event. That we are not making life happen, as there is no real I, that this world is more like a movie unfolding with the I's being characters in this movie. And my consciousness/awareness being the observer. Not sure if this is how traditional Advaitists view life, but is how the neo-advaitists seem to view it.

The effect of stepping back into the observer role and watching the self, vs being so invested in being good and right, etc, has made me calmer, less grasping, and less easily drawn into destructive thought patterns. Why be upset about the course of the world, my own life, etc when it is in reality likely a play that has been going on for eternity.

Indeed. I am a great believer in the idea that we are all actors in a comedy/drama of our own making. But for a long time we identify with our role (whatever that might be) and we forget that we are just actors playing a part. Stepping back and observing the play as it unfolds produces a calm detachment. And we can also have fun experimenting with rewriting the script to create a better part for ourselves (but that too is part of the play).

Originally Posted by Charles

At one point, I even "imagined" a falling away of self in the middle of the night. Probably mostly the power of suggestion from reading watching these ne0-advaitists. As that experience did not last, and knowing myself, I doubt that that was a genuine experience of loss of self, but it hardly matters. What will be, will be.

I don't plan on straining myself in spiritual disciplines, as I think that can be a trap of trying to escape our present life. Another tricky catch 22. I have however been wanting to spend more time in silence, and in observing and listening, and that has felt good and productive of insight.

Perhaps the sense of falling away of self was not just imagination but a genuine glimpse of a greater reality. Such glimpses may be the precursor to a new expanded state of awareness. It is counterproductive to strive to repeat such an experience, but we can surrender and let go and allow such things to happen.

Originally Posted by Charles

Golden Bay, New Zealand, eh? You lucky dog!!

Yes, I am very fortunate. I have been here 20 years and I would not live anywhere else. But there are plenty of such beautiful and interesting places on this planet - I suppose that we all end up wherever we are meant to be.

Peace