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  #41  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:27 PM
blackraven blackraven is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl
I think the reason having a positive mindset is looked down upon more often in the world is because it's been conflated with naivety. It's easy to be positive when you're living in paradise and your not worried about paying your bills. Besides, nobody likes to be preached at.

On the other hand having a pessimistic negative attitude seems perfectionist because you find dissatisfaction in most things. No matter what, something is always lacking. You never find satisfaction because nothing is worth caring about and hence forth, worth preserving.

If you fail to see value in anything, no matter how bleak it might seem, you become nihilistic. Life loses meaning and purpose, while you give way to your base impulses.

I think being positive, although sometimes foolish is ultimately better. There is something about falling short of perfection, and still finding value. Even if or when you see the flaws in a thing, you can still love it, or you can still see it's potential. That's got to be a good thing.

Maybe the problem with a positive mindset is about discerning what is and what isn't worth caring about. You don't always have to be passive and positive about everything that happens. You don't have to suppress your negative feelings to be optimistic.

Flexi-Girl - My thoughts on positive versus negative thinking is that one manifests matching outcomes in a variety of forms. Chronic negative thinking for example, can impact ones health both physically and mentally as well as the tendency to bring about like forces his or her way, such as negative interactions with other people.
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  #42  
Old 21-02-2020, 08:39 AM
symmetricalsnowflake11 symmetricalsnowflake11 is offline
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I find when I do positive thinking, If I try to apply it to certain situations that someone is angry/upset about, they think i'm lessening the impact or trauma of that situation. Like i'm dismissing how bad something can be. I don't believe i'm doing this at all, just trying to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think people make that mistake sometimes.
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  #43  
Old 21-02-2020, 09:27 PM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
I still haven't had a good answer to this question. Objectively, what makes positive positive and what makes negative negative? Please, be the first.

It's not about a positive or negative mindset, it's about a mentality that will talk about us being here to 'learn the lessons' then label the lesson as a negative experience. Eat your greens and learn from experiences, even though they really suck they're still good for your Spiritual development. They're also character-building and you want some of that as well, don't you? And now you have a two-for-the-price-of-one bonus, how positive is that?

well for us like any words 'positive' and 'negative' are a matter of agreed upon definition. Kind of a 'handle' we use to pick up the real thing.

Maybe some thought about the things such words bring to mind is in order: bright and sunny, successful, prosperous, healthy, socially desirable, to run toward goes with one word and dark and gloomy, failure, impoverished, ill, undesirable, to run away from go with the other.

Objectively speaking, since words like 'positive' and 'negative' are heavily weighing in our desire for what should and should not be, and for the 'place' in the tapestry we want to go live in, and a strong motivator in our choice of what to do or not do, it seems like a 'creator' (for lack of a better word) could conceivably use them to 'guide' us in a certain direction. That is without even regarding what the actual definition for positive and negative is (in any physical sense) we could still be moved to activity just by usage of such words.

For someone who is interested in knowing things this could be a frustrating idea though, as the books talk about things like seals to keep people out of certain 'places'. And then there is the whole thing about being thrown out of eden, can't eat from the tree of life, etc...etc... I suppose all that could be done with judicial use of which words were said, to make us run in one direction vs another. Do it over a long enough period of time where people are living and dieing and what happened before is forever being forgotten again and again, and why would we even notice?

if you come to think about the herding thing you might also think about the idea that some being who is using words and the referenced experiences for herding people may have had a hand in designing what the words and referenced experiences mean in the first place... so there might be something deeper to those experience themselves than what seems obvious from the time we've spent on things other than what seems desirable. In other words what we think we know about the physicality of such things may need to be taken with a grain of salt. But again there is a tendency en-masse to go one direction, not the other. So we don't really know, although we will swear all day long that we do.

All that conjecture aside, bottom line is it never made sense to me to try to learn about 'objective' reality while embracing half of it as if it were your lover and simultaneously trying to push the other half under the rug so it never sees the light of day. But that is just me I guess...
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  #44  
Old 22-02-2020, 11:17 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FallingLeaves
well for us like any words 'positive' and 'negative' are a matter of agreed upon definition. Kind of a 'handle' we use to pick up the real thing.

Maybe some thought about the things such words bring to mind is in order: bright and sunny, successful, prosperous, healthy, socially desirable, to run toward goes with one word and dark and gloomy, failure, impoverished, ill, undesirable, to run away from go with the other.

Objectively speaking, since words like 'positive' and 'negative' are heavily weighing in our desire for what should and should not be, and for the 'place' in the tapestry we want to go live in, and a strong motivator in our choice of what to do or not do, it seems like a 'creator' (for lack of a better word) could conceivably use them to 'guide' us in a certain direction. That is without even regarding what the actual definition for positive and negative is (in any physical sense) we could still be moved to activity just by usage of such words.

For someone who is interested in knowing things this could be a frustrating idea though, as the books talk about things like seals to keep people out of certain 'places'. And then there is the whole thing about being thrown out of eden, can't eat from the tree of life, etc...etc... I suppose all that could be done with judicial use of which words were said, to make us run in one direction vs another. Do it over a long enough period of time where people are living and dieing and what happened before is forever being forgotten again and again, and why would we even notice?

if you come to think about the herding thing you might also think about the idea that some being who is using words and the referenced experiences for herding people may have had a hand in designing what the words and referenced experiences mean in the first place... so there might be something deeper to those experience themselves than what seems obvious from the time we've spent on things other than what seems desirable. In other words what we think we know about the physicality of such things may need to be taken with a grain of salt. But again there is a tendency en-masse to go one direction, not the other. So we don't really know, although we will swear all day long that we do.

All that conjecture aside, bottom line is it never made sense to me to try to learn about 'objective' reality while embracing half of it as if it were your lover and simultaneously trying to push the other half under the rug so it never sees the light of day. But that is just me I guess...
There are a number of words that have been taken from non-Spiritual sources and have been redefined beyond any original meaning, 'positive' and 'negative' being two of them. They're applied in Spirituality to perceptual reality and most of the time they are what the individual finds acceptable or not - such as a 'negative' experience.

There are a number of 'systems' of the brain/mind that come into play when defining something as either 'positive' or negative'. One of those is the Limbic System of the brain, it's primary function is survival and is still active today. 'Positive' and 'negative' have been imprinted into human consciousness since we were prey for lions and tigers and bear, oh my. Run from what we don't like/feel is dangerous or gravitate towards comfort or safe. It's still very much in action even with Spiritual people - Shock!! Horror!! - as they perceive threats to their paradigm or what is compatible with it. If there is a creator, that's what he uses to 'guide' people.

Naturally we gravitate to the 'positive' and shy away from the 'negative'. however that often means we don't deal with our 'negative' feelings any more and find a way to cover them up. People want to 'think positive' instead of dealing with their emotions and spending the time in introspection because of them. That's pretty 'negative'.

Really, 'positive' and 'negative' are simple 'fight-or-flight' from our own perceptions and feelings.

The seals to keep people out of places was done for good reasons. Knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands, but seals are often 'tests' to ensure someone has attained a certain level of understanding - not just in the gaining of knowledge itself but in the Spiritual and cognitive maturity of the person seeking it. Positive and negative comes from binary thinking - it's simple 'this' or 'that, like or don't like. The pre-Taoist alchemists spoke of Triplex Unity which is where there is 'this, there is 'that' and there is 'both'.

Our perceptual reality is subjective and there is no 'objective' when it comes to our own perceptions of what 'positive' or 'negative' really are. There is no Universal definition, no marker or standard to set against. If we began to question the reasons we use the words and how our own definition of them creates our reality we might begin to understand ourselves a little bit better, and how there is more to 'learning the lesson' than finding out what is 'positive' or what is 'negative'.

There are reasons for all we believe in, if we're going to be honest enough to admit to them and explore them. It's what Buddha said we should do. There's a lot I can say about understanding what's really at the bottom of Spirituality and the positive vs negative discussion but there's really no point because I always get slated for it. And the reasons I get slated for it are the same reasons people think in terms of positive and negative.

I guess nobody really wants to know how destructive so-called positive thinking really is and how it undermines their Spirituality.
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  #45  
Old 24-02-2020, 12:58 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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I find a lot of discussions to be only half-accounted for. Meaning, the other half of the context is ignored or overlooked.
For example, we are unique and yet not separate. We exist in interbeing with all that is.
So, discussion of individuals outside the social context that shaped their humanity is always going to be 1) abstract and 2) incomplete.

If we grow up in an oppressive society, or if we are enslaved, or if we are ill or starved...if we endure civil war and violence...or if we endure a degraded civil society that is no longer civil, etc., the social fabric -- along with the rest of the individuals in our society -- matter equally to the moment alongside what we individually bring to that moment.

It's a beautiful thing to focus on what we call the goodness in human life, in whatever way that resonates with us...most typically it's beauty (including nature) and/or our pleasures. This may also include acts of love and kindness.
But it's inauthentic to ignore or overlook the suffering, or the misalignment that causes it. And the authentic is always beautiful, even if not in ways that are commonly marketed or labelled as such.

That is, it is equally beautiful to tend to the suffering, the poor, the ill, the vulnerable, etc. There is beauty in speaking to the misalignment and standing for those who cannot -- who are broken in spirit, who have no voice and no advocate. And there are arguably infinite opportunities to do so at this point in our human journey.

We all need love and support on our journey, particularly simple presence (being there) and lovingkindness. However what that means for many folks is not always a pep talk. Perhaps that's fine at times from someone who really knows you & is there for you...but I can appreciate nature on my own, and simple kindness or an offer to help is usually preferable. Nor do most want to be chatted up as a prelude to sex or being used. Rather, to heal and grow on their paths, most want to stringently avoid being used...and prefer simple, kind conversation or basic social interactions that honour all parties.

IMO folks most of all want to be heard, seen, and accepted as they are. They want to be able to discuss the reality of their lives and not be forced into pretense, silence, or superficial chat. They just want to be real and for others to do the same, and for that to be "OK". Most fundamentally, folks want their humanity to be acknowledged and honoured simply as it is -- a given -- without having to justify their existence, or to pay to play, or any of that.

If we look around us...
...at the state of inequity in the economy in the much of the West (state-level corruption, vast and growing inequities, egregious corporate welfare)
...the state of civil society, democracy, social norms, gender-based violence (even just in the West) and trafficking....
...and the damage to the environment...

...it seems hugely fanciful to ignore the presence of many of these things in our individual lives as well as in the social fabric in which we are embedded. I think it's good and right and very positive to say there is loads of misalignment, loads of harm being done, and this is what it looks like on the ground, day-to-day in our lives.

To be real, we'd have to own that this is how it damages us...this is how it makes us feel. And this is how we could change that...this is what we could do instead. And let's help each other get there with kindness and support.

When we can own the misaligned words and deeds, and speak to it very simply and directly...then we can begin to create the opportunities for change and right-alignment.
In ways that we can mutually discover which do not oppressively harm ourselves and/or others.

And to me, that is what positive thinking and positive (right-aligned) speech and action look like.

Peace & blessings
7L
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  #46  
Old 26-02-2020, 11:05 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
There are a number of words that have been taken from non-Spiritual sources and have been redefined beyond any original meaning, 'positive' and 'negative' being two of them. They're applied in Spirituality to perceptual reality and most of the time they are what the individual finds acceptable or not - such as a 'negative' experience.

GREAT POINT! . . . . . . . ֍


'Positive' and 'negative' are generally used as judgment words: words we should not use - EVER.

There are some belief systems in which you would be hard pressed to hear such words.
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      Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind
     whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.

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  #47  
Old 26-02-2020, 11:12 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
GREAT POINT! . . . . . . . ֍


'Positive' and 'negative' are generally used as judgment words: words we should not use - EVER.

There are some belief systems you would be hard pressed to hear such words.


I might be wrong, but it seems the more some dwell on negativity vs positively, the more negative they become, till almost everything, if not everything is 'negative'.
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      Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind
     whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.

     ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜
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  #48  
Old 28-02-2020, 07:39 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
GREAT POINT! . . . . . . . ֍


'Positive' and 'negative' are generally used as judgment words: words we should not use - EVER.

There are some belief systems in which you would be hard pressed to hear such words.
Thank you, and there's another great point because they are judgement and nothing more.

If an experience is judged or defined as 'negative' then that's what it becomes in that person's reality, whereas they could just as easily easily defined it as a lesson and turned it into something 'positive'. Double whammy. 'Positive thinking' is akin to denial and when someone 's emotions are awry, it's very negative (meaning harmful in this context) cognitive behaviour because it only causes internal conflict and their emotions/trauma isn't dealt with effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
I might be wrong, but it seems the more some dwell on negativity vs positively, the more negative they become, till almost everything, if not everything is 'negative'.
The people that use those words tend to have similar mindsets and they tend to be very polarised in their thinking - which is where it comes from.
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  #49  
Old 28-02-2020, 09:46 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Thank you, and there's another great point because they are judgement and nothing more.

If an experience is judged or defined as 'negative' then that's what it becomes in that person's reality, whereas they could just as easily easily defined it as a lesson and turned it into something 'positive'. Double whammy. 'Positive thinking' is akin to denial and when someone 's emotions are awry, it's very negative (meaning harmful in this context) cognitive behaviour because it only causes internal conflict and their emotions/trauma isn't dealt with effectively.

The people that use those words tend to have similar mindsets and they tend to be very polarised in their thinking - which is where it comes from.

֍ THANKS FOR THE CONFIRMATION! ֎



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      Happiness is the result of an enlightened mind
     whereas suffering is caused by a distorted mind.

     ⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜⁜
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