What does it mean to love? To love ....

That is one of the better quotes SG - but I wonder, where do we cultivate moral courage? Where do we find the strength to stand up against counter opinion? Where do we discover the independence of mind necessary to stand up for our convictions?

I agree completely with all those quotes AC, and find the underlying values very important and beneficial ones, but the bible also wisely says to all things there is a season. Sometimes retreating is appropriate. Sometimes, the wise choice is to withdraw and nurture the next phase of our expression. Even the ancient sages knew the value of occasionally secreting oneself away for a period of contemplation and renewal.

Great list though - Thanks!

Greetings..

Originally Posted by AC

You will have to take it back to your homes and give it to your wifes, to your children, to your neighbors.
You will have to distribute it, because I refuse to take it.
And you cannot make me angry unless I accept your humiliation, your insult.
Ten years ago, I was not conscious; if somebody had insulted me, he would have lost his head immediately.
I had no idea that insulting me is his problem, and that I have nothing to do with it. I can simply listen and go on my way."

Buddha

I have 'listened, and gone on my way'..

As i am one of those who use the 'ignore' function, i appreciate your efforts, AC.. but, as in the following quote:

Originally Posted by AC

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of the colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. Each time a person stands up for an idea, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, (s)he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." - Robert F. Kennedy

I do have the "moral courage" "to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning".. and, some of that 'conditioning' insists that all must conform to a particular system of beliefs, including beliefs about how an individual chooses to balance the energies in their own existence, and in their relationship with a community such as this Spiritual Forum..

Be well..

For many, love is just a facial expression.

[hybrid]

Love is seeing
the unity
under
the imaginary
diversity.

~ Nisargadatta

Greetings..

Originally Posted by hybrid

Love is seeing
the unity
under
the imaginary
diversity.

~ Nisargadatta

I see you have quoted Nisargadatta, does this quote accurately represent the way you experience 'Love'?

Be well..

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..


I see you have quoted Nisargadatta, does this quote accurately represent the way you experience 'Love'?

Be well..

yes..........

Greetings..

Originally Posted by hybrid

Love is seeing
the unity
under
the imaginary
diversity.

~ Nisargadatta

How can there be unity without diversity?

If you can observe Unity, you are a 'diverse part' of it..

Can you explain why you understand diversity to be imaginary?

Be well..

Originally Posted by Humm

agree completely with all those quotes AC, and find the underlying values very important and beneficial ones, but the bible also wisely says to all things there is a season. Sometimes retreating is appropriate. Sometimes, the wise choice is to withdraw and nurture the next phase of our expression. Even the ancient sages knew the value of occasionally secreting oneself away for a period of contemplation and renewal.

Great list though - Thanks!

I deeply agree with what you have said. I see that as loving oneself, pulling away from that which is harmful or not understood.
It is loving and wise to not proceed until one has healed from the harm, if harmed, or until one understands.
Unwise to proceed if one doesn't understand why self was injured or why another is upset.

I interpret this as a balanced and wise life.
Move forward into the unknown, but when one discovers new difficulties for the first time, as one might as one traverses into the unknown,
to lovingly and wisely pull back to evaluate the new experience to determine how to best proceed.

So yes, by all means lovingly and wisely stop or pull back to evaluate. But evaluate what?
What is the context of the journey some of us have agreed to embark on in this thread?
That is for the individual to consider of themselves, as only the individual can clearly see what is inside themselves.
I and other's can only observe and theorize, share our interpretations as to what is inside another.

But it's also, as I see by my understanding of all that has been said in this thread, the issues are:
Open and honest communication to resolve a problem.
Loving instead of just talking about it.
Why there is a problem, how it began(source(s) and what perpetuates it(actions\attitudes\beliefs of self and others) , and changing something to resolve it.

Sometimes retreating is appropriate.

Recalling a few...

"All strong souls first go to hell before they do the healing of the world they came here for. If we are lucky, we return to help those still trapped below." - Clarissa Pinkola Estes

"Many of us spend our whole lives running from feeling, with the mistaken belief that you cannot bear the pain.
But you have already borne the pain. What you have not done is feel all that you are beyond that pain." - Kahlil Gibran

"If you want to follow me to freedom, be prepared to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning.
Be prepared to grapple continuously with the fierce flow of negative mental currents. In time our strokes will become effortless and our sense of purpose irresistible." - Buddha

"You will either step forward into growth or you will step back into safety."" - Abraham Maslow

Yes, pull back to evaluate self, other's, the experience, then...

Sometimes, the wise choice is to withdraw and nurture the next phase of our expression. Even the ancient sages knew the value of occasionally secreting oneself away for a period of contemplation and renewal.

Contemplation and renewal of what?

Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.

To renew\re engage one's profound ability to love without restriction, ie no more need to retreat or pull back.
To recall a few...

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

"As you create expectations of people or situations, as you create opinions of what should or should not be taking place with yourself and others, you create your dilemmas." - John Roger

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - Buddha

Originally Posted by Humm

That is one of the better quotes SG - but I wonder, where do we cultivate moral courage? Where do we find the strength to stand up against counter opinion? Where do we discover the independence of mind necessary to stand up for our convictions?

I cannot speak for others, but I have found on my journey that all I require to fulfill your queries has been found within myself.
And this quote encompasses greatly , if not completely, what the problem is and how to recify it.

"Our soul work...is to repair ourselves, to heal into wholeness. It is, simply put, to identify and remove whatever gets in the way of being truly who we are. It is the task of uncovering our authentic self from the encrustations that overlay it, concealing it from us." - M.J. Abadie

My own healing journey has been about removing that which hinders my ability to love.
And as I look within as i write this post, this love just never stops, it has the power to overcome and resolve all problems.

My ability to not be offended, though I can describe the mechanisms of how it works for each type of problem encountered,
it's simply describing how love works in real situations.
Unoffendability is love in action.
And to not be offended is such a beautiful freedom.
The encrustations that overlayed my inner being(whatever they may be) restricted the full flow of love for myself and others.

What is love? Is it god? Is it the source of all of reality, the life force of everything?
I really don't give a dingo's kidney about such matters.
I know what love feels like, I have experienced it, seen it, sensed it, and I choose to heal myself in order to recieve and share the fullness of it.

Originally Posted by Humm

That is one of the better quotes SG - but I wonder, where do we cultivate moral courage? Where do we find the strength to stand up against counter opinion? Where do we discover the independence of mind necessary to stand up for our convictions?

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

...I have found on my journey that all I require to fulfill your queries has been found within myself.

Good answer.

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

...And this quote encompasses greatly , if not completely, what the problem is and how to recify it.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

I have 'listened, and gone on my way'..

Originally Posted by AC

Finally Buddha said to them, "If the things that you wanted to say to me are finished, I would like to go on to the next village where people are waiting for me.
But if you are not finished, after a few days I will be returning and I will inform you. Then I will have enough time to listen to all that you want to say."

Buddha did not use the ignore function of his time. He was willing and capable to listen to all another has to say, regardless of...

Originally Posted by AC

"Gautam Buddha was surrounded by a crowd that was abusing him, using ugly words, obscene words,"

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

I do have the "moral courage" "to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning".. and, some of that 'conditioning' insists that all must conform to a particular system of beliefs, including beliefs about how an individual chooses to balance the energies in their own existence, and in their relationship with a community such as this Spiritual Forum..

Originally Posted by AC

"If you want to follow me to freedom, be prepared to swim upstream, against the river of conditioning.
Be prepared to grapple continuously with the fierce flow of negative mental currents. In time our strokes will become effortless and our sense of purpose irresistible." - Buddha

Buddha is referring to one's own inner negative mental conditioning, not the conditions of others or externals.

Originally Posted by AC

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of the colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence.

Humm, and I take on an assuming role here Humm, please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation.
Humm, expresses his disapproval of your actions, you have encountered his wrath, so to speak.
Tzu, instead of braving this, you have chosen to ignore. You have stopped listening to Humm express himself openly, directly and honestly.

i carefully and openly and honestly used the ignore feature to almost remove Humm's unpleasantness,

I see not logical basis to dispute that you have openly and honestly chosen your course of action or as I said before, that I am making demands you change course.
However, this is what I desire to openly, directly and honestly discuss...

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

You have my vote, AC.. i am very interested in your perceptions, even if i feel the heat myself.. i prefer direct communications and honesty..

Though you have not yet responded, agree or disagree, to my previous conclusion that 'direct' is part of 'openess' and upon pondering this, perhaps you see 'honesty' is part of 'openess'.
Either way, and unless you offer your views of it, I will assume direct, open and honest are all related. Open means, no restrictions, no barriers, no walls.

You have freely chosen to ignore Humm because you judge\evaluate\percieve\interpret\feel\sense, him or part of his actions to be unpleasant.
But, recalling a few...

Originally Posted by AC

"A person is buffeted by circumstances so long as he believes himself to be the creature of outside conditions." - James Allen

"It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble, how hopeless the outlook, how muddled the tangle, how great the mistake. A sufficient realization of love will dissolve it all." - Emmet Fox

"As you create expectations of people or situations, as you create opinions of what should or should not be taking place with yourself and others, you create your dilemmas." - John Roger

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

You, AC, and i, agreed to open and honest communication after Humm became irrelevant in my attempts to have productive discussions on this forum and after i placed him on my ignore list, a list of one.. i hope that you can respect that clearly articulated choice..

I have not separated myself from everyone else in this thread. I have declared I choose to openly and honestly communicate with all, not just you.
Again, I respect your freedom to choose your actions, I do not agree with it though in the light of your decalration you prefer open, direct, honest communication.
Ignoring is not open communication, it is non communication.
Ignoring is not direct communication, it is non communication.
Ignoring is not honest communication, it is non communication.

Yes you are communicating to Humm that you no longer wish to communicate.
But has that resolved the problem between you and Humm?
Yes, it's stopped you from experiencing unpleasantness, but the problem, the problem that has surfaced within this thread between a number of people, has not been resolved.
And do you really think ignoring someone will help resolve it?
How can you help resolve an issue if you will not discuss it with someone who may speak rudely due to frustration, for example, as I make no claims I know why people say the things they say?

Yes, you have clearly articulated your choice, but clearly defining a choice does mean it is the correct choice. A person can clearly define a wrong choice just as well.

Classifying Humm as irrelivant is extremely insultive. Classifying Humm's actions, less so.
Tzu, you chose to ignore, how unproductive is that to a discussion where people are willing to discuss to resolve an issue in this community?

I am not in the least offended by Humm's personal attacks.. i chose to use the ignore function to keep threads clear of the debris of the interactions between Humm and me..

Originally Posted by AC

"A person is buffeted by circumstances so long as he believes himself to be the creature of outside conditions." - James Allen

"If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment." - Marcus Aurelius

Buffeted enough to choose to ignore though Tzu.

Consider this. You have evaluated Humm's behavior to be unpleasant and irrelevant, and you are free to do so I, I am not challenging that,
as one of the beauty's of being a human is the ability to interpret reality in order to lovingly take care of oneself.
However, if you did not evaluate Humm's behavior as unpleasant, would you still be communicating with him in order to resolve the forum\family problem?
I say yes, or at the least, a difference in course of action. If Humm were not unpleasant to your eyes, there would be no shunning away from, no ignoring.
Communication would remain open, direct and honest.

I said before, and I will expand on it here, that this explorative, open and honest discussion, to see what is under each of our hoods might not be fun, that it may evoke strong feelings, harsh words,
but if one sticks it out and goes thru and beyond the initial "reactions" phaze, one may come to a place free from all the negative encrustations that enshroud our souls.
Yeah, I'm using "our" here because time and time again I see it so clearly in every person I encounter, starting with myself.

Originally Posted by AC

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." - Carl Jung
"People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own soul." - Carl Jung
"Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darkness of other people." - Carl Jung

Humm is proactive in his defense of Xan and in his beliefs about my motives, and.. in his passion for his beliefs he looses sight of the reality of the discussions..

And you will lose sight by ignoring instead of discussing why he defends and why he percieves you as such and such.

i challenge ideas and concepts, he challenges 'me', the person..

If Humm openly, directly and honesty expresses his concerns for the forum/family problem by way of challenging you, then as another who prefers open, direct and honest communication, wil you not meet that challenge instead of ignoring Humm's or anyone else's concerns?

so, it's not that Humm offends me, it is that there are consequences in this forum for certain behaviors, and i have chosen to defuse the potential for consequences..

I think you will find, as you are seeing in my responses, that other's may view your choice to ignore as either inflaming the issue or as having no reducive affect at all on future consequences.
Considering the object of all this is to discuss, and you and others have chosen to not discuss because you have issues with how another expresses themself.

And by all means, as Humm wisely pointed out, taking care of oneself, protecting oneself from verbal abuse etc is priority one.
But if communication channels are severed, the problem cannot be resolved.

Originally Posted by AC

"Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of the colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential, vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields most painfully to change. Each time a person stands up for an idea, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, (s)he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance." - Robert F. Kennedy

Having the moral courage to not be buffeted by the harshness of others enables one to focus on the problem and help resolve it.
And this is what i think this moral fibre is?

Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.

I would welcome open and honest dialogue with anyone, but.. too often, when the questions expose issues that the other party is unwilling to look at objectively, the discussion is shut down..

Are you referring to your choice to shutdown discussion by ignoring?

the admonishment to back off at that point simply empowers the status quo, reinforcing the usefulness of unilateral rejection of an agreed examination of the issues.. so, rather than scatter the debris of pointless attempts at reconciliation, i simply clean up the mess.. and, yes, i realize that the 'mess' is as much my own issue as that of others, hence the choice to 'prune the tree'..

Sweeping the mess under a rug by ignoring does not the resolve the source of the problem which created and perpetuates the mess in the first place.

Reconciliation is never pointless, it simply reaches a point of diminishing returns.

How can you recieve returns if you ignore what another openly, directly and honestly expresses what they see as an issue that is part of the reconcilliation that they are wanting?