An Eye for An Eye. - Spiritually !

[iamthat]

It (ego) might be an illusion - but good that it's there. Otherwise, without an identity we'd have nothing to distinguish ourselves from anyone or anything else.

There is a difference between ego (identification with personality) and Ego (individualised consciousness).

Identification with personality is a temporary state which one day we can let go of. Individualised consciousness remains, distinguishing us from everyone else, but without all the problems that come from believing that we are a particular personality.

As for turning the other cheek and being a doormat etc, another perspective is that it comes down to being empty. If we are empty then it doesn't matter if someone thinks we are a stupid idiot. If we are empty then we are unlikely to attract a cheek-smiter into our lives. And if such a person does turn up and smite our cheek, then nothing has really happened. So there is no need to respond with further cheek-smiting.

Peace.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It (ego) might be an illusion - but good that it's there. Otherwise, without an identity we'd have nothing to distinguish ourselves from anyone or anything else.

There is a difference between ego (identification with personality) and Ego (individualised consciousness).

Identification with personality is a temporary state which one day we can let go of. Individualised consciousness remains, distinguishing us from everyone else, but without all the problems that come from believing that we are a particular personality.

As for turning the other cheek and being a doormat etc, another perspective is that it comes down to being empty. If we are empty then it doesn't matter if someone thinks we are a stupid idiot. If we are empty then we are unlikely to attract a cheek-smiter into our lives. And if such a person does turn up and smite our cheek, then nothing has really happened. So there is no need to respond with further cheek-smiting.

Peace.

Pretty much this...but it can also be interpreted in various ways.

To achieve Enlightenment or Samadhi is by no means, a simple act of Self-actualisation without the sacrifice... without the surrender of everything you could EVER think or believe that you are...It could also be likened to an honour that is only bestowed upon the "worthy" and, as such, there are MANY tests of this "worthiness"...One could even say that God, Himself, tests us by assuming the form of the one who smites us.

Now, I have read here, how people do not want to be a "doormat"...but what IF "being a doormat" can guarantee you instant Enlightenment...would you still say that you don't want to be a doormat at the expense of being "spiritual"? or would you happily become a doormat then? Are you prepared to become a martyr? are you prepared to die for your beliefs or not? because that is what it all boils down to...You may never have to do so...but if push came to shove, would you give up your place in the life raft of the Titanic? or would you be the one who is beating the path there and trampling over others to get the best seat?

Originally Posted by iamthat

As for turning the other cheek and being a doormat etc, another perspective is that it comes down to being empty. If we are empty then it doesn't matter if someone thinks we are a stupid idiot. If we are empty then we are unlikely to attract a cheek-smiter into our lives. And if such a person does turn up and smite our cheek, then nothing has really happened. So there is no need to respond with further cheek-smiting.

Peace.

Tell that to the many victims of unprovoked violent assault in London recently, empty or not.
.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Pretty much this...but it can also be interpreted in various ways.

To achieve Enlightenment or Samadhi is by no means, a simple act of Self-actualisation without the sacrifice... without the surrender of everything you could EVER think or believe that you are...It could also be likened to an honour that is only bestowed upon the "worthy" and, as such, there are MANY tests of this "worthiness"...One could even say that God, Himself, tests us by assuming the form of the one who smites us.

Now, I have read here, how people do not want to be a "doormat"...but what IF "being a doormat" can guarantee you instant Enlightenment...would you still say that you don't want to be a doormat at the expense of being "spiritual"? or would you happily become a doormat then? Are you prepared to become a martyr? are you prepared to die for your beliefs or not? because that is what it all boils down to...You may never have to do so...but if push came to shove, would you give up your place in the life raft of the Titanic? or would you be the one who is beating the path there and trampling over others to get the best seat?

Yes, a view to be considered. It hinges on what one understands enlightenment to be, something I have trouble with as I see advancement (on the path to development) being a series of initiations large and small by ourselves. If Instant enlightenment (as far as I understand it) can arise from being a doormat then one has to consider the impact on a "normal (mundane) life" with which one has to engage if they're to survive. I doubt I'd win many business assignments by being a doormat and my love life would deplete me fairly quickly I suspect.

There's no perfect answer.

.

[Shivani Devi]

I will be brutally honest with you, Lorelyn.

In the Eastern traditions, practicing spirituality with the goal to obtain Moksha or liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth is an "all or nothing" venture....and accounts for most of the material shyte I find myself in....but I also realise I am in very good company.

To be proficient at anything, even meditation and being able to remain detached 24/7 requires much patience and practice....and a LOT of introspective silence.

I mean, to achieve what I am aiming for, I should be getting up at 4am every day, meditating for an hour or two...doing an hour or two of yoga asanas, chanting the Gayatri Mantra 108 times...becoming a total vegetarian...doing kriyas and karma yoga...am I even doing ANY of that? Nope...and therefore I will not progress along the spiritual path, doing whatever it is that I WANT to do...and not what I HAVE to do....until such times as what I HAVE to do, becomes doing what I WANT to do....and this, we call Sadhana.

Basically, in the yogic tradition, there are no compromises and no excuses...If you don't want to do it, don't expect to get anywhere or have anybody help you, because they will simply say that you are wasting theirs and your own time, because you are not committed...You don't have the thirst for truth and knowledge, or else you would be doing the Sadhana..no questions asked.

I'd be lucky to do two hours of yoga and meditation a week...but it needs to be approached like an athlete training for the Olympics...Moksha... spiritual enlightenment is a "go big or go home" thing and there's no room for those who just take a half-ar$ed approach...The World is full of such "Gurus" who will be reborn as an "internet Guru" many times...even Ramana Maharishi woke up at Brahma muhurta every day to perform austerities...and yet, those who follow him advocate "doing nothing" because there is nothing to do and
nothing to achieve....The Hindu and Buddhist Scriptures and every enlightened master since time immemorial would like to have a word...However, I can let them believe that because they will probably believe the same thing next lifetime too...and possibly the one after that as well.

There is a difference between knowing and practicing...and those, like me who know but don't do much practical work are also due for a few more rides upon the Karmic merry Go round as well, until such times as they get serious and get their finger out and not just keep on riding on the coat tails of Grace, because the universe tends to get pi$$ed if you have been given a gift you are doing nothing with...and then, it's like every day is a curse and not a blessing... because you've already had blessings and chosen to ignore them or procrastinate with all that "spiritual stuff" and 'because I don't have to' is probably the best, albeit stupid excuse the human race has come up with so far...I just say that I am incredibly lazy...but unless I change that, nothing else will....EVER!

So now you know...You need to want Moksha like you want air or food.

[captainamerica]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I will be brutally honest with you, Lorelyn.
So now you know...You need to want Moksha like you want air or food.

You are absolutely right ,my friend .Thank you so much for the important lesson !

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

Yes, a view to be considered. It hinges on what one understands enlightenment to be, something I have trouble with as I see advancement (on the path to development) being a series of initiations large and small by ourselves. If Instant enlightenment (as far as I understand it) can arise from being a doormat then one has to consider the impact on a "normal (mundane) life" with which one has to engage if they're to survive. I doubt I'd win many business assignments by being a doormat and my love life would deplete me fairly quickly I suspect.

There's no perfect answer.

.

you have to do stuff, but if you don't sit and learn what to do you won't know what to do? so there is a not-doing involved too.

children don't really discriminate about what they learn, until someone teaches them to discriminate about what they learn? And then they are adults and can't learn anything other than what is allowed.

The problem is if you use discernment without knowledge you are jsut shooting in the dark. And if you use discernment to determine what knowledge you need to be able to discern things properly, same deal.

So when faced with the unknown, at some point you just gotta sit there like a doormat. Or like a sponge if you like that better. Sop EVERYTHING up no matter whether you like it or not and wait until you have a lot of info to start sifting and filtering.

People don't like that, they say it has all sorts of negative connotations that are 'beneath' them. But people also convince themselves of all sorts of things that I sense are falsehoods masquerading as the truth. Maybe it is better after all to be a doormat than to be lost in the house of the winning?

In the end what you get will depend partly on what you give, and partly on what you take. Personally I can see where the lives people often choose take them though. But it all seems kinda bland except for the fact that other people are doing it.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

you have to do stuff, but if you don't sit and learn what to do you won't know what to do? so there is a not-doing involved too.

children don't really discriminate about what they learn, until someone teaches them to discriminate about what they learn? And then they are adults and can't learn anything other than what is allowed.

The problem is if you use discernment without knowledge you are jsut shooting in the dark. And if you use discernment to determine what knowledge you need to be able to discern things properly, same deal.

So when faced with the unknown, at some point you just gotta sit there like a doormat. Or like a sponge if you like that better. Sop EVERYTHING up no matter whether you like it or not and wait until you have a lot of info to start sifting and filtering.

People don't like that, they say it has all sorts of negative connotations that are 'beneath' them. But people also convince themselves of all sorts of things that I sense are falsehoods masquerading as the truth. Maybe it is better after all to be a doormat than to be lost in the house of the winning?

In the end what you get will depend partly on what you give, and partly on what you take. Personally I can see where the lives people often choose take them though. But it all seems kinda bland except for the fact that other people are doing it.

If we want to get serious, "being a doormat" is a personal judgment call. It says "I don't have to stand here and take this" and they are also right, they don't...but that discrimination (viveka) then needs to come into play when it comes to allowing their ego to be trodden on (or not) vs not being personally interested in whatever another has to say or do without feeling victimised by it...but at the same time, thanking them for their opinions or contribution.

In the Bible, it DOES say "an eye for an eye" but in the Bible, Jesus also says that if somebody slaps you on your right cheek, offer the left one as well. This shows spiritual maturity, in that you are willing to stand up to such people without fear... without backing down, but also taking the "high road"...It is akin to when someone abuses you, you can just stand there calmly and ask "are you done yet?"...this will have the immediate result of infuriating them more, but the more one fogs, the more likely it is the other is going to say "what a bloody imbecile" and leave them in peace from that moment on...and if one truly does not care what others think, that should not be an issue...and they will just leave you alone in future to do whatever you are doing...or not doing...even though one realises that "doing nothing" is still doing something....but whether that is what they NEED to do, is another story. LOL

[Ziusudra]

Originally Posted by Dan_SF

I could only point to that line in you. But it is your part to look on it, and to decide.

Ill give you an example:

(p.s. look on the each example separately, as if they were done once. at least think about them individually)

(*** start of the experinent ***)

If i tell you that you are a Stupid idiot. Would you forgive me ? (note:unknown person to you)

If your wife tells you the same, you probably would agree. ( well, for this example sake, lets say that you would) - (note:Loving person to you)

If your Boss tells you the same, when you are alone, would you forgive him? (note:higher positioned person, related to your Job)

If your Boss tells you the same in front of all other co-workers, whats then ? (note:higher positioned person, related to your Job)

If the president of your country tells you the same, on the TV, where it can be heard internationally, would you forgive ? (note: ... nevermind )

(***end of the experiment ***)


If you have followed the examples, you will recognize that it all depends on the circumstances.

Moreover, if you look internally, then it seems as is all up to YOU to forgive.
For it is you who take one case and count losses and winnings and by it you chose if it is to forgive or not.

Dan,
Those examples that your provided are too benign.
Sure, I wouldn't care to react much to those examples.

Let's bring up the notch.
Let's see how you would react to the following examples and see if the religious teaching of "Finding virtue in forgiveness" can still persevere.

1. Genocide and war - your children, your wife, your siblings, your parents were tortured and murdered in front of you. Your children were buried alive. Your wife was raped and slashed. Your parents were decapitated - all in the name of their God.

2. Murder - A religious fanatic hijacked an airplane and crashed into a building - killing everyone in it and the love of your life, or your child, or your parent.

3. A complete stranger, a psychotic sociopath, came into your work place and started shooting at you and your coworkers. Injuring you and disabling you permanently - paraplegic. You will never be able to walk or get up from your own bed, even to go to bathroom.

4. Your trusted husband having an affair with his co-worker - decided to kill you, along with yours and his beautiful Innocent children.

5. A priest raping you when you were 8yrs old and his whatever higher ups protecting/covering up- for centuries.

6. A pedophile raped and killed your 5yrs old child.

The list can go on and on..
These are not hypothetical. These are real life events in our world as we are discussing here.
Compared to other even more horrific events that are going on, these are not even the worst crimes.

But let's use the above as examples to increased the intensity a bit.

Let's see how "enlightenment" can bring about forgiveness in you.

We can forgive and even forget about most of "poking of eye" interactions.

However,
When we start seeing why and how a Karma is created, it is not about mere small tick tacks.
Karma and testing of soul are by the big, gut wrenching, and soul crying events.

It is interesting that region is being used in this discussion.
Most of wars and killings were caused by religions - throughout our human history. So, religions have nothing to do with "Forgiveness".
Some of them have been fighting with each other for thousands years.
What? there are not "forgiveness" teaching in those religions?

Forgiveness is the victims' way of coping with pain and event.
The perpetrators do not care to receive forgiveness from their victims.
They may want forgiveness from their victims to selfishly feel less guilty of their wrong doings.
So, there is NOT a reason to forgive.

Go ahead and Forgive, if this is the only way that you can cope with yourself to live through it.

[Ziusudra]

Duplicate Duplicate. why does it keep happening.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by captainamerica

You are absolutely right ,my friend .Thank you so much for the important lesson !

Thank you, brother..and I did not miss this...Just pacing myself here.

I shall relate a personal story, to you and to all.

It is impossible for a mortal being to comprehend the "mind of God" or even try...but through patterns caused by lived experience, one can get an inkling of it.

The only one who CAN say "an eye for an eye" IS God, because He acts out of retribution and not out of revenge. He is unbound by Karma, which "an eye for an eye" will just keep on perpetuating until, as Gandhi says, it will make the whole world blind.

Between the ages of 17-25 years old, I DID a lot of Sadhana...I became a Yoga teacher and studied at the Divine Life Society in Rishikesh...and the reason why I cannot advise you as to who you should accept as your Guru, is because I do not (or should not) let any personal bias creep into that... because what may be good for the goose may not be good for the gander...and this is why I do not reply to your PMs about it...but I digress.

I was destined to become a great Yogini..a great Sadhvik...to devote my life to the pursuit of God and Moksha...until I met another Yoga teacher and an Indian Sadhu from Fiji...who knew more about the Vedas and Upanishads than I did...It was a meeting of minds more than a meeting of hearts and souls...we got married anyway and I moved into my "householder phase" (grihasta varnashrama)...I had two children because I wanted to have children..but from then on, the responsibility towards them, overtook the responsibility towards my Sadhana..of course, but it soon became a case of "be careful what you wish for" because my children loathed and resented my husband and myself since early childhood...There was no love there either....even though I did try my best, but it just "wasn't meant to be" even though it appeared as IF it was...but it was all a huge lie.

Then, last birthday, my ex husband sent me a text wishing me a happy birthday and then whining that he hadn't seen either child in over ten years and they couldn't care less whether he was alive or dead...to which, I replied that it was the same story for me...but I just couldn't care less anymore, because that was two less "attachments" I did not have to worry about when my time eventually came.

If I had my life over, I would have definitely made different choices, knowing what I know now and I spent years resenting the choices I DID make, until God said "I only gave you what you wanted at the time and not what you needed...I had other plans for you, but you didn't want to listen..."

So, one can only live off the Karma associated with previous Sadhana...until that runs out and then one has to go "back to the drawing board" a little older and hopefully a little wiser.