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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #11  
Old 27-03-2020, 01:18 PM
ketzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Just on this concept of identification with consciousness - to me it feels inherently problematic in the context of non-duality, because identification assumes a duality, doesn't it? There has to be an entity on the one hand, and an entity on the other with which it's identifying, right?
Hhhhmmmmm? Maybe, but if so, it is a problem for non-duality so perhaps one should look at it from a duality perspective instead. After all, a duality perspective is really the only way any one can look at any thing, is it not? Non-duality itself feels inherently problematic in the context of non-duality as it creates a duality vs non-duality situation which is a duality.
Getting dizzy now, must stop typing..... ...THUD.
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  #12  
Old 27-03-2020, 03:57 PM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Originally Posted by ketzer
Hhhhmmmmm? Maybe, but if so, it is a problem for non-duality so perhaps one should look at it from a duality perspective instead. After all, a duality perspective is really the only way any one can look at any thing, is it not? Non-duality itself feels inherently problematic in the context of non-duality as it creates a duality vs non-duality situation which is a duality.
Getting dizzy now, must stop typing..... ...THUD.
Your dog-chasing-its-tail avatar feels very appropriate right now! I've tied myself up in knots plenty of times trying to figure it all out, I already know it's beyond me but I still like to wrestle with it from time to time

On the bit in bold - that's just it though, consciousness isn't a thing as I understand it.
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  #13  
Old 27-03-2020, 04:00 PM
Jyotir Jyotir is offline
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Originally Posted by Moondance
The self that a no-separation sensibility refutes is the one that doesn’t exist - the one that is not here, now in this wide-awake happen-ing state of present experience. I sometimes refer to this as the ‘happened self’ as it solely resides in memory and narrative - not in actuality - it’s a persistent and convincing delusion upheld in mind.*

But let’s be clear, in the absence of this phantom self, the matrix of body-mind-activity still endures and its biological proclivities still arise. There is still the play of an individuated matrix which we can’t just reason away or trust that it will disappear when our narratives and memory are let go of. It persists in the same way as a tree persists or a bird or a stone etc.

Yet like the tree and the stone it has no inherent existence or self-origination and therefore no ultimate reality - it is activity, expression, patterning (for want of a description) of THIS - of wholeness. THIS or wholeness is the only actor. But it acts (in the case of a doing, for instance) VIA the individuated matrix.

It is via this play of the individuated matrix that identification arises. Source has no need for identity. So to a question such as, who is it that makes a cup of tea or fills in the tax returns? Strictly speaking, there is no separate one to make tea - there is only THIS - Source or wholeness manifest. But to pacify the intellect (in the context of a forum set up or similar) it is helpful to answer something like, Source… presenting as the body-mind-matrix makes tea or takes an aspirin for a headache or fills in the tax returns or avoids walking in front of speeding trucks etc.

Ultimately a question such as ‘who am I’ leads to the source of the intellect - but by then the question is meaningless.





* The sentient body-mind organism is biologically adapted to have a sense of individuated orientation. Over time the individuated orientation accumulates a reflective history which builds into a (almost incessant) self-reflective narrative. This history/narrative conceptually congeals to become a kind of pseudo entity - the happened self (also known as the psychological self or the remembered self.)

Nicely said.



Offering that (by inversion) another way to say this:
Quote:
Source has no need for identity.
Source is Identical to its Self-existence.

~ J
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  #14  
Old 27-03-2020, 04:22 PM
ketzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Your dog-chasing-its-tail avatar feels very appropriate right now! I've tied myself up in knots plenty of times trying to figure it all out, I already know it's beyond me but I still like to wrestle with it from time to time

On the bit in bold - that's just it though, consciousness isn't a thing as I understand it.

Yeah, hard to resist chasing things when they always seem just out of reach. Well, if consciousness were a noun it would have to be either a person, place, or a "thing"..... maybe it is all three. Maybe consciousness is a verb, not a noun, or maybe it is both, maybe all at once. Hmmm, wonder if it could also be an adjective or an adverb???
Dough, there I go chasing my tail again. You know what is a noun, a nice chicken flavored raw hide chewy, maybe I should take a break and find one of those to work on for awhile, followed by a nice nap.
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  #15  
Old 27-03-2020, 05:24 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Just on this concept of identification with consciousness - to me it feels inherently problematic in the context of non-duality, because identification assumes a duality, doesn't it? There has to be an entity on the one hand, and an entity on the other with which it's identifying, right?

Perhaps my understanding of the concept of identification is flawed or incomplete (it's not something I'd given much thought to until now, so that could easily be the case), could you elaborate?

A simple way to consider this is that the nature of personality is form and the nature of consciousness is formless.

When consciousness identifies with personality then consciousness is identifying with duality. The nature of form is duality. In this case there are two apparent entities, consciousness and personality.

When consciousness identifies with itself then consciousness is identifying with unity. The nature of formlessness is unity. There is only one entity, consciousness. Personality ceases to exist as an entity.

But on a higher turn of the spiral there are still two "entities" - pure Being and consciousness. So we can take it a step further and consider consciousness identifying with pure Being. Some call this Being the Self, our true nature, which expresses through consciousness, just as consciousness in its turn expresses through personality. Identification with pure Being is identification with the All.

Peace
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  #16  
Old 27-03-2020, 06:17 PM
ketzer
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What happens when consciousness identifies with a horsey.
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  #17  
Old 27-03-2020, 06:30 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
What happens when consciousness identifies with a horsey.

Then consciousness goes round and round in circles, rather like a dog chasing its tail.

Peace
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  #18  
Old 27-03-2020, 06:33 PM
ketzer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Then consciousness goes round and round in circles, rather like a dog chasing its tail.

Peace
WeeeeeEEEEEEE! Its meeeeeeEEEE! Around and around I go!
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  #19  
Old 28-03-2020, 11:18 AM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
A simple way to consider this is that the nature of personality is form and the nature of consciousness is formless.

When consciousness identifies with personality then consciousness is identifying with duality. The nature of form is duality. In this case there are two apparent entities, consciousness and personality.

When consciousness identifies with itself then consciousness is identifying with unity. The nature of formlessness is unity. There is only one entity, consciousness. Personality ceases to exist as an entity.

But on a higher turn of the spiral there are still two "entities" - pure Being and consciousness. So we can take it a step further and consider consciousness identifying with pure Being. Some call this Being the Self, our true nature, which expresses through consciousness, just as consciousness in its turn expresses through personality. Identification with pure Being is identification with the All.

Peace
Interesting - I have a sense of what you mean, thanks for elaborating :-)
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  #20  
Old 28-03-2020, 11:21 AM
A human Being A human Being is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Yeah, hard to resist chasing things when they always seem just out of reach. Well, if consciousness were a noun it would have to be either a person, place, or a "thing"..... maybe it is all three. Maybe consciousness is a verb, not a noun, or maybe it is both, maybe all at once. Hmmm, wonder if it could also be an adjective or an adverb???
Dough, there I go chasing my tail again. You know what is a noun, a nice chicken flavored raw hide chewy, maybe I should take a break and find one of those to work on for awhile, followed by a nice nap.
A doggy treat and a nap definitely sounds preferable to attempting to make sense of non-dual theory right now
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