Guru Trap

[Kaere]

It would be nice if we could talk about this without having to insinuate about how awful and deluded our other board members are.

[BlueSky]

My feeling is that there is nothing that we cannot experience. Nothing!
That goes from visiting other worlds to experiencing a true self or an immense sense of joy or healing. The issue is, IMO, that we don't realize the power of intention and we don't understand experiences. We take it as a personal achievement, hence we end up wishing it for everyone, looking down from where we think we have achieved.
IMO

It would be nice if we could talk about this without having to insinuate about how awful and deluded our other board members are.

But that is whats happening Kaere, we all get deluded at times and I have sincerely appreciated being reminded of that and its only happened when someone steps out of the politics of spirituality to just be honest, what we do with that honesty is up to us. If it were naming people and being personal then I agree as its not the right place to do that.

[Chrysaetos]

In the end it's about belief. A guru can be exposed by people (magic tricks) or self,
when he or she shows harsh judgement, scientific illiteracy, or sexual appetites.

Why believe a guru?

HTBF formula: (How To Be Fooled)
(X:unproven reality,Y:specific practice)

1. A claims X is true.
2. A does this through Y.
3. B does Y.
4. B claims A and X are true.

It doesn't follow. Of course you would get the same results. I notice the same thing with visualisations, meditating upon deities, places etc.
As a sceptic, I require some actual proof. Not anecdotal evidence, or acceptance of a cultural paradigm.

I don't have any problem with someone preaching love and peace.
My issue is with people who claim to be fully enlightened, self-realized, liberated, Godman, avatars etc.

[quote]It doesn't follow. Of course you would get the same results. I notice the same thing with visualisations, meditating upon deities, places etc.
As a sceptic, I require some actual proof. Not anecdotal evidence, or acceptance of a cultural paradigm.

I don't have any problem with someone preaching love and peace.
My issue is with people who claim to be fully enlightened, self-realized, liberated, Godman, avatars etc.[/QUOTE

I tend to find the whole of spirituality just lots of metaphors which we can use to create various states.

The use of the metaphor of seeing energy flow though the crown and cleanse the body can create a tingling sensation which feels good. It would be easy to say then this is real, works and has to be done a certain way to "really" work.

Suggestion creates metaphor which then creates suggestion and then experiences. I have used metaphor in therapy to amazing results and clients physically feel the change within them. Yet I created the metaphor with them based on how they feel, not what is really happening. It's just a representation of the problem and by working with that representation you can often change the problem right at its root.

the mind is very powerful and the paradox is that spirituality promotes the power of the mind but not when it comes to creating the experiences and truths they hold so dear. Which by the way isnt a problem unless promoted as fact to other people.

[BlueSky]

I tend to find the whole of spirituality just lots of metaphors which we can use to create various states.

The use of the metaphor of seeing energy flow though the crown and cleanse the body can create a tingling sensation which feels good. It would be easy to say then this is real, works and has to be done a certain way to "really" work.

Suggestion creates metaphor which then creates suggestion and then experiences. I have used metaphor in therapy to amazing results and clients physically feel the change within them. Yet I created the metaphor with them based on how they feel, not what is really happening. It's just a representation of the problem and by working with that representation you can often change the problem right at its root.

the mind is very powerful and the paradox is that spirituality promotes the power of the mind but not when it comes to creating the experiences and truths they hold so dear. Which by the way isnt a problem unless promoted as fact to other people.[/quote]

Nice Post......................

People can say what they wish i'll give my ears to them (or eyes on here lol) and i'll take what i find is useful and discard the rest. however, i know what you are sayin, i was watching this one video of drunvalo melchizedek who i still like and has some good teachings, some i don't like, but one time so one caught him off gaurd and he was like oh i know this is too complex.. he messed up his dates and blamed someone else on the complexity of it. this girl i met in toronto was kind of nutty and kept telling me she was full of wisdom and stuff and I was just trying to be gentle with her i didn't want any trainer or anything lol and she put so much pressure on me to deliver answer cause she thought i was a star child cause i'm so young and all this, either way we still had a good trip and went to meet the kogi's but answer this for me. the kogi's went around canada for a month and quebec was there last stop and that's where i went. it was a nice day and we had a good workshop and got to ask a lot of questions and when it was done and over with the mc said somethin like okay now the kogi's are tired and ready to wrap up so let's give them a hand, shake there hands then let them rest (imagine the culture shock to one of the only civilizations that totally escaped the spanish invasion and has lived the same without money, or electricity for 4000 years, just a lil bit!) and then everyone was leaving and my new friend went up and kept harassing them and everyone was like omg what is she doing! she even got her one friend to reluctantly translate for her for these ridiculous questions that they so humbly and patiently and loving answered for her even though they were totally unnecessary, she literally thought she was the "chosen one" of the kogi, she even got a tattoo that she thought they gave to her, she showed them and they didn't even flinch, she thought she was the choosen one because of that rob shneider movie with the kogi in it and her tattoo and stuff, now, if your tellin me she wasn't experiencing some type of ego trip there, then i don't know what is!

[Uma]

Originally Posted by Siddha Buddha

The guru trap may appear as the that one setting up their self to have realized some kind of enlightenment others can't achieve, commune and/or experience; that one may set up the future to be where the magic happens. The guru may tell their students that they will need the guru forever, or that the guru is the gate to God. Some claim to be taking you home, or preparing you for some global event, or prophecy. All is some kind of trap, but the devotees of God must be responsible. A bridge is built from both sides of the river. I would suggest that the guru is already in your heart. Ideas of having an objective guru, verses subjected - within yourself, lead to people falling into differing forms of dependency. Be responsible and research a teacher, read many of the teachings, try and talk to current disciples under the guru. Blindly following a guru, is not beneficial to ones spiritual practice. Ultimately, one can always commune perfectly and freely As, with and through God. No one else is necessary.

Now, lets be honest, there are genuine gurus out there, and the failures of the false gurus should not have consequences for the real ones. :]

STANDING OVATION!!

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by shepherd

The use of the metaphor of seeing energy flow though the crown and cleanse the body can create a tingling sensation which feels good. It would be easy to say then this is real, works and has to be done a certain way to "really" work.

Well yes. Visualising the chakras, then reaching a state of peace and ''seeing'' these colours just proves absolutely nothing to me.
We can experience all sorts of things based upon beliefs and outer stimuli.

Originally Posted by Shepherd

It's just a representation of the problem and by working with that representation you can often change the problem right at its root.

It is useful indeed but we must not forget how we got there.
Interesting video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xl00dyJ3vU

I can't say whether the video is genuine, but such things are possible.
Just think what a very skilled person (say guru) can do...

Originally Posted by Shepherd

Which by the way isnt a problem unless promoted as fact to other people.

Exactly. And gurus generally claim to have/know all the facts. Ask them about astronomy or biology and they are exposed.

After having read this thread...I stopped for a moment to think about some things that happened to me in the years 2002-2004...had a brain fart...and realized I just don't need this stuff anymore.

You see - I started out simply with healing myself regarding herbs, supplements, essences, and just a few crystals...I never ever cared to get all wrapped up in the bells and whistles...but somehow...it happened anyway...and I had to spend much time trying to undo that stuff in addition to all the other stuff...needless to say, this is why I've been so mentally exhausted. I needed only to focus on the time of when I had the soul exchange - and the trauma that came from that...not the prior soul's stuff or any of this karma bit (don't believe in it)...it's just trauma.

Thanks Shepherd.