What should I have done?

[Tortoise Walks]

Hello again :-)

Re: hobby, Markings referred to his activity as a hobby he enjoyed, so I similarly used the term hobby or activity. That's all good. The rest of it is judgments you've put onto me or assumed that I've made so you'll need to put that aside to read the rest of what I've shared below.

Ok, we read Markings words differently... he'd have to share more to learn more. It sounded like dancing was an important aspect of his life to me. He also seemed upset that his wife called it an obsession. Maybe they are both not being heard... As for misunderstanding your words... fair enough. I hope you can understand how I could interpret your advice to mean limiting and reducing contact with women. I did read those words - twice... as you say he (and men in general) are vulnerable to visuals, touch, ego boosting, etc... so best to stay away? Your words seemed to project/equate that his dancing [without physical contact] and enjoyment of his friendship was for ego boosting and sexual gratification -even questioning whether he'd already crossed the line to adultery. He could either channel it [sexual energy] honorably or in debased ways that use and objectify others as masturbation material. I hope I misunderstood that too ;-)

Can you understand why I am confused and asking for more clarification on what are honorable ways to channel sexual energy between men and women? Especially as you seem to agree that sexuality is an integral part of men (and this woman at least) that is always present. I personally think that creating, arting, dancing are wonderful ways to channel sexual (soul) energy with others. It's expressive, healthy, raises confidence, creates things that didn't exist before, and I would hope mutually beneficial to the well beings for all participating!!! Any soul provoking expressions of life can raise one's sexual energy... Is the goal to water down activities and sharing ideas between men and women such that you don't risk raising one's internal sexual/sacred energy if you are married? To avoid people who inspire you and motivate you to become who you want to be? Stick to conversations about the weather? Put a blindfold on while walking about town... don't make eye-contact or smile... let alone have an interesting conversation or share in mutual interests? Anything that lingers or could turn into mutual caring?

It's not that I don't understand that we are all sexual beings or that men are quick to enjoy visual and touch stimulation. I do. I accept and allow. I don't confine or stifle or shame men for this. Even if I am not always the recipient or if I am. I also don't take surface attraction too seriously until it becomes deeper and authentic. Of course honesty, respect, authenticity, being on the same page are important and that's how it works for me. Sounds like Markings and his wife are not on the same page... maybe they can figure out a way to meet both of their needs/desires. Like how much shared time together do they both need to feel good in the relationship (this is different for each couple)? If you figure and agree on that then maybe it doesn't matter so much what they are doing the other times... And if they disagree then it's good to know there may be some incompatibility brewing under the surface.

What I wonder though is about honor vs. debased/degraded... Especially in the context of existing partnerships. Gray areas perhaps... I don't think someone who has a passion for dancing is being dishonorable by pursuing that passion. Even if he/she develops a crush or whatever... It's part of life... And if I had a friend whose partner was missing him/her and instead of requesting time, etc... sought to shut down their passion... I would recommend balancing it by investing in that relationship. Definitely. And if that is attempted authentically and still no dice... I would also share that they don't have to live according to someone else's rules to make someone else happy at the cost of your own happiness. Is this self-serving or entitled? Partnership/Marriage doesn't have to be a ball and chain. To each their own...

In this case I would enjoy the grins and excitement of my husband when he came home from a night out dancing. Probably enjoyed a night myself doing my own thing... Maybe ask him to agree to do some household chores while he's still on cloud nine, hehe... And while not perfect... I know he loves me, respects me, and we share/gain more than I lose with him free to collaborate with others. Men or women... attractive or not... crush or not... Though I know he enjoys it when he collaborates with those who are. Heck... me too...

For Markings... he was focusing on dancing and how his friend was a wonderful collaborator for this. Sure he may be attracted... So what... still I don't think that means it's debased or heading to adultery or anything like that. I guess that's why I was taken aback by your word choices...

(Also, practically speaking, the OP is married so waxing poetic about uncommitted sex is about you and not particularly useful to the OP, LOL... and plays exactly on those vulnerabilities and challenges of men that I mentioned...

Waxing poetic about uncommitted sex? hahaha... I can be wordy... We may have that in common ;-) It's not even about uncommitted sex for me... I am creative. It's about art and conversations and projects and dancing and yoga... or whatever. I am free to collaborate as my heart sees fit :-) Others make it more about sex than matters to me. So be it.

I like to enjoy interactions with people as they come... I went out for a friends birthday a couple years back and enjoyed a lovely conversation with a man I never met before. At the end of our group outing he surprised me and kissed me on the cheek. It was lovely!!! It was authentic and appropriate for the moment. We never saw each other again. I may be in an open relationship but having actual "sex" with "people" as you may be assuming is very low on my agenda. I am more concerned about being and sharing authentically with people I appreciate and care for. And no worries I am definitely not frivolous in my "sexual" sharings. Instead, I intentionally smile and meet each person where they are at.

Like I shared previously... I am a whole (sexual) being and so I do bring my whole self everywhere. Like this conversation... Practicing using my voice, putting together words, and expressing my opinion... It's good for me... I am all about being authentic and aligning with my heart. I also am soft on myself if I try something and discover... hey that's not for me... I like to allow the same courtesy to everyone. To know what's best for themselves... or to discover it on their path rather than decide for them... or judge them if what aligns for them is different than what aligns for me... Married or not... I have done that... Judged people. I think it hurt myself more than anyone else... I try not to go there... or realign with my hearts intention when I recognize it...

I do share my experiences and pitfalls sure but in the end each person makes their own choices and i respect that.

Hugs :-)

[angelic star]

I gather this other person is compensating for all that your wife can't give to you at this moment. You need to ask yourself some questions if you really feel unhappy.

Who would you ever turn to if you were vulnerable , and felt they avoided or neglected you , at a time when you could use some reassurance. What if they told you that they can't do things with you that they can do with someone else.

Was it wrong for your wife to seek some re assurance from you ? What is the extent of that re assurance she needs from you? Would you seek re assurance from someone if you were in secured or unhappy ?

It isn't unfair to follow a passion or hobby and to find your bliss, but was it wrong for her to ask of you ? People demand some empathy from each other. Even strangers do. I guess if temporarily your dance partner is compensating for things that your wife can't give to you, it's also something missing with you there, or perhaps you connect to vital part of yourself without her or that you feel you couldn't get from your partnership so far. It's fair to set some time apart to do things for yourself.

It's good to have hobbies, it's good to do something for self, and to set time for self, like meditation or reading a book, or drawing or dancing in your case. If its a hobby or a passion wouldn't you pursue it anyways. Why do you have to say you cant do it with your wife ? Did you mean she is not a good dancer ? If I have a passion I would do it anyways, my partner/ family does not have anything to do with it, and least of all would I bring other people into the dynamic to prove I need to do it without them. I am a dancer to btw, I have been dancing for more than a decade. If you like to dance, you can dance anyways, what does your wife have to do with a third person dancing with you and you not being able to do 'dance' with her like you can with this other lady ? I am sure your wife doesn't mind you dancing

If you had to change something, what would you change ? would you seek your freedom and leave this partnership ? or would you stay ?

I gather it would be hurtful to your partner if she felt there was a lack on her part that did not make you happy. On some level that might be affecting you as well. The question is do you want to be a part of it willingly , or do you need your space from it. How could you better communicate that with your partner without any hurt feelings for anyone.

I think if that's the case anyways, that she makes you not much happier, than it's critical for both you and her to analyse where both of you are at. There are many ways to be unhappy together when there is blame, rather than acceptance, love, and some much needed empathy from both sides.

A lot of people stay with their partners when they don't love them anymore, but wouldn't leave them anyways. I guess it's not just one person's fault there.

There is a saying by a famous saint ' When you cannot appreciate a person it's better to let them go'.

[Dargor]

As long you didn't cheat on your wife or any stuff like that I don't really see why she would make such a fuss it, and you should let her know that. But whatever, I am not a relationship expert so I advice you not to listen to me.

[angelic star]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

I suppose it's a sad reflection on how society has fallen apart with abandoning the concepts of duty and responsibility in favour of right and entitlements

Show of tolerance, wit, and spirituality are all embellishments. People like to be in control or show they are in control. We express 'opinions' on other people's lives because we are all very selfish and entitled. I think it's very easy to use spirituality as an excuse to show tolerance to everything and say yes to everything. It is also cool to look sensitized, however intelligence and wit of written word is not always evidence for enough honesty. Reality might be very different. People who shun duty and responsibility might be miserable just as much as those follow duty and responsibility. It's a very complex world and very unfair world.

There are 7.6 billion people in the world. So there are 7.6 billion stories out there. We don't know all of them. We singularly know our own stories very well, so instead of feeling humble we feel very entitled. Because that's the finality of what we know. We know our rights very well, we like to talk about ourselves a lot, and we know a lot of what needs correction and have a big voice about it all. None of these people who want to ' correct' another's life will talk of what needs evaluation or correction in their own life. It's easy to give advise to others. Makes feel good about self.

The OP might be the most honest person in the bunch for being truthful about how he feels, even if many will disagree with them.
I feel most have a bit of fabrication especially on an online forum.

In any case, yes people feel very entitled. Most of us, all of us are guilty of it. Well said.

[Torgo]

Originally Posted by angelic star

Show of tolerance, wit, and spirituality are all embellishments. People like to be in control or show they are in control. We express 'opinions' on other people's lives because we are all very selfish and entitled. I think it's very easy to use spirituality as an excuse to show tolerance to everything and say yes to everything. It is also cool to look sensitized, however intelligence and wit of written word is not always evidence for enough honesty. Reality might be very different. People who shun duty and responsibility might be miserable just as much as those follow duty and responsibility. It's a very complex world and very unfair world.

There are 7.6 billion people in the world. So there are 7.6 billion stories out there. We don't know all of them. We singularly know our own stories very well, so instead of feeling humble we feel very entitled. Because that's the finality of what we know. We know our rights very well, we like to talk about ourselves a lot, and we know a lot of what needs correction and have a big voice about it all. None of these people who want to ' correct' another's life will talk of what needs evaluation or correction in their own life. It's easy to give advise to others. Makes feel good about self.

The OP might be the most honest person in the bunch for being truthful about how he feels, even if many will disagree with them.
I feel most have a bit of fabrication especially on an online forum.

In any case, yes people feel very entitled. Most of us, all of us are guilty of it. Well said.

OP asked for our thoughts. We took him by his word that he was honestly seeking advice and needed help. How answering him is "selfish and entitled" is a bit of a stretch and maybe just some sort of projection on your part. As a matter of fact, this thread is full of projections. The OP wrote very little and so many assumptions were made about his life and relationship. Scary.

[7luminaries]

Tortoise, hello!
I feel like I really replied at great length about how men are broadly different and every man learns to manage this or not, and behave with integrity or not, regarding his core nature.

Like Torgo notes, we only know the basics of Markings' situation, how he's described his wife (burdensome, difficult, unappreciative and older) and the other woman he spends a good deal of time with outside his hobby (young and fun), and that he is a married man who's feeling put upon, resentful, and burdened by his wife and her physical situation. We really don't know much else. Thus I spoke very practically to him as a man and regarding concrete suggestions or actions he might consider.

You really do have a huge backstory there, and I think much of it is informed by all you describe that relates to you. I get that. I really don't want to say anything else regarding you and your perspectives unless you're asking...only to say that it's all mixed in with Markings' situation and it's a bit hard for me to sort it further .

If you wanted my comments or thoughts on something for you yourself, you can just ask specifically, apart from your dialogue on Markings.

I think I've already made my practical suggestions to Markings (if he ever revisits his thread) so that's about all I need to say on that You might also ask honourable men what they have to say about commitment and temptation, as a man, and consciously channeling their sex drive in honourable ways...which includes avoiding using others in your life as masturbation fodder or as partners in crime. It's just the honourable thing to do...

For example, it's why it's not allowed in most gyms to take pictures of folks exercising, even though they're not naked. Because no one wants to be some gent's random masturbation fodder and we all know why they're trying to sneak those pics when they do it. I could have used a much more serious example, but you get the idea. Men need to honourably bring their heart to their sexuality, and not by dishonouring those to whom they are currently committed. That too is against the honour of the heart.

If you need more insight, I highly recommend you find an honourable gent, even if perhaps it means you must seek out a traditional religious type to explain it to you. From there, you can keep the ethical and moral core truths but leave aside any particular faith as integrity and moral intelligence are universal.

Peace & blessings
7L

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by Torgo

The OP wrote very little and so many assumptions were made about his life and relationship. Scary.

Yep.


......

[Tortoise Walks]

Hi 7L,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I shared from my own experiences what I thought might be helpful to the OP. I've been on the flip side of the equation as the OP (with my husband) and I know it is possible to heal and move forward from immense hurt and disconnect into aligned partnership if both are willing (and compatible). I wanted him to know that his feelings and dreams are important and at least from my perspective (with very limited knowledge of him and his relationship) he didn't share anything that indicated to me that he was debased and dishonorable in having a close friendship with someone who shares in mutual interests - even if she is younger.

Since you brought up honoring and acknowledging mens sex drive and visual/tactile stimulation sensitivity as well as noting its goodness I asked you about ways women can honor and acknowledge mens wholeness (including their passions, dreams and inherent sexuality)... as women, wives and partners relating in the world with each other. Especially if we are not to give up dreams and passions... either one in a partnership. I was curious of your ideas as it related to the OP's situation since IMO your advice seemed focused on honoring and acknowledging the OP's wife more so than the OP. I appreciate your sharing. Unfortunately, I couldn't parse your response in a way that I understood. We can leave it be... We can agree that using/abusing people is not ok and being honest with oneself and others and having integrity leads to rewarding relationships. Maybe we'll meet again on another thread.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Tortoise, hello!
I feel like I really replied at great length about how men are broadly different and every man learns to manage this or not, and behave with integrity or not, regarding his core nature.

Like Torgo notes, we only know the basics of Markings' situation, how he's described his wife (burdensome, difficult, unappreciative and older) and the other woman he spends a good deal of time with outside his hobby (young and fun), and that he is a married man who's feeling put upon, resentful, and burdened by his wife and her physical situation. We really don't know much else. Thus I spoke very practically to him as a man and regarding concrete suggestions or actions he might consider.

You really do have a huge backstory there, and I think much of it is informed by all you describe that relates to you. I get that. I really don't want to say anything else regarding you and your perspectives unless you're asking...only to say that it's all mixed in with Markings' situation and it's a bit hard for me to sort it further .

If you wanted my comments or thoughts on something for you yourself, you can just ask specifically, apart from your dialogue on Markings.

I think I've already made my practical suggestions to Markings (if he ever revisits his thread) so that's about all I need to say on that You might also ask honourable men what they have to say about commitment and temptation, as a man, and consciously channeling their sex drive in honourable ways...which includes avoiding using others in your life as masturbation fodder or as partners in crime. It's just the honourable thing to do...

For example, it's why it's not allowed in most gyms to take pictures of folks exercising, even though they're not naked. Because no one wants to be some gent's random masturbation fodder and we all know why they're trying to sneak those pics when they do it. I could have used a much more serious example, but you get the idea. Men need to honourably bring their heart to their sexuality, and not by dishonouring those to whom they are currently committed. That too is against the honour of the heart.

If you need more insight, I highly recommend you find an honourable gent, even if perhaps it means you must seek out a traditional religious type to explain it to you. From there, you can keep the ethical and moral core truths but leave aside any particular faith as integrity and moral intelligence are universal.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Tortoise Walks

Hi 7L,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I shared from my own experiences what I thought might be helpful to the OP. I've been on the flip side of the equation as the OP (with my husband) and I know it is possible to heal and move forward from immense hurt and disconnect into aligned partnership if both are willing (and compatible). I wanted him to know that his feelings and dreams are important and at least from my perspective (with very limited knowledge of him and his relationship) he didn't share anything that indicated to me that he was debased and dishonorable in having a close friendship with someone who shares in mutual interests - even if she is younger.

Since you brought up honoring and acknowledging mens sex drive and visual/tactile stimulation sensitivity as well as noting its goodness I asked you about ways women can honor and acknowledge mens wholeness (including their passions, dreams and inherent sexuality)... as women, wives and partners relating in the world with each other. Especially if we are not to give up dreams and passions... either one in a partnership. I was curious of your ideas as it related to the OP's situation since IMO your advice seemed focused on honoring and acknowledging the OP's wife more so than the OP. I appreciate your sharing. Unfortunately, I couldn't parse your response in a way that I understood. We can leave it be... We can agree that using/abusing people is not ok and being honest with oneself and others and having integrity leads to rewarding relationships. Maybe we'll meet again on another thread.

Cheers!

Tortoise hello there. I didn't realise you were asking a specific question before -- I got lost in the words. That's why I asked you to please specify. Now that I see your question put to me clearly, I did address it

Also, once again, I did NOT say or intend Markings should put himself behind his wife. When I say "this is what I said and this is what I mean" and immediately after, you say "(it seems) you intended the opposite (of what you just said)", it seems disingenuous to me on your part. If we're having a courteous conversation, allow me to speak for myself and accept that I mean what I say I mean. To do otherwise is to call me a liar or a trickster, and I am neither of those things.

So here's what I recommend. You speak for you, and let me speak for me If I say something and I say what I mean by that, then allow me the right to my own voice and don't keep re-interpreting it according to whatever you want to put forth or disagree with. Instead, just simply say whatever it is you want to say and speak for yourself. I will continue to do likewise for you. For example, I don't tell you what it is that you "seem to" mean or intend by what you say (particularly when you've just said the opposite) -- instead I leave it to you to say what you mean. Do you see the difference? Questions are fine, if they are sincere and also don't involve loads of contradictory restating of folks' stated perspectives ;)

I'll try once more...Look at what the man himself has said about the facts on the ground. Markings has NOT been putting himself second. By his own omission, he has been spending large amounts of time with his special friend and speaks of how great she is physically and due to her youth, compared to his burdensome limited sack of a wife, whom he resents for being human and for whatever is going on with his passion for his hobby. The situation has been going on for over a year in some form, it sounds like, and he doesn't seem remotely concerned about anyone but himself and what he wants, full stop. His wife has been nowhere near the top of list, either with regard to his time or his respect and regard. He is repeatedly willing to disparage her to total strangers.

Thus, I was recommending a bit of balance. Maybe cut back hobbytime to 2x a month, or whatever. OR go weekly if that's the deal no exceptions, but regardless, spend less time alone with the special friend hanging out. Meaning, specifically include the wife and/or bring the wife to some of your friend or hobby events or after time, on at least some occasions. AND spend some time alone with the wife together doing something they both can enjoy, whatever they can do...if it must be physical, they can walk or maybe do gentle tai chi or something. But it doesn't always have to be. You get the idea.

It's not all about the wife, and nor is it unfair, simply to suggest bringing some balance. That balance is nowhere in what Markings himself says about his own actions over the past year. So I offered some practical suggestions for consideration to address that. Beyond that, I was mainly just addressing your questions because I thought you were sincerely asking what I thought and because I have noticed probaby 90% of the women I know (95%?) don't seem to understand men very well at all...of course no doubt the same goes for most men, too. Somehow I've always had a bit of insight and I do try to share it on occasion. Really, it's a wonder we've got this far as a species really, hahaha ;)

So it's about honouring the wife equally to the self and vice versa in love and kindness, instead of just focusing on himself and acting resentful. Markings hasn't been honouring his wife much by his own admission, like I said, neither by the way he allocates his time, nor by the way he compares her and describes her so poorly in his thoughts and then to total strangers. If Markings doesn't want to be married then I recommend he disengage honourably, not by disparaging and excluding the wife and using that to marginalise her and distance himself his partner and thus justify whatever may come. That's his decision, however, whether to act honourably or not.

I stand by what I said, however, which is that it is extremely unwise and unloving to suggest to anyone (but even more so to those who are committed) that uncommitted sex is a good thing and that everyone else needs to get with the program and just go with the flow...especially because we are not men. Recommending uncommitted sex is a suggestion that IMO is nearly always misaligned spiritually, and for many, especially many men, this area is already a central spiritual challenge in their lives.

That is, there is a reason so many men struggle with this during the course of their lives...and it's because it's a weakness and they're vulnerable, particularly those who are less well-developed emotionally and spiritually in authentic love (lovingkindness and equanimity). And frankly, IMO it's despicable to exploit or pander to the weaknesses of others...and so we all need to better educate ourselves on the vulnerabilities of others, so that we relate to their humanity with our humanity....and not to their weaknesses with our predation and/or manipulation.

I also see your question now about what I think regarding how women can support men in centreing their sexuality honourably in love. At least, IMO that is the question that is the starting point to respond to "what can women do?" Women too need to act honourably, grow up, and take full ownership for their actions, word and deed. We may not generally have the vulnerabilities to straight-up sex, touch, visuals, porn, and so forth that men do. But we too need to take ownership, grow up, and not use our sexuality frivolously and/or to manipulate men and prey on their weaknesses. I.e., not coating everything in our wake in sexual napalm.

IMO that means don't have uncommitted sex with men, as that is akin to giving them crack and pimping yourself out as both dealer and product. Everybody loses. IMO there really is no centred, right-aligned way to engage sexually with another sentient being without both parties mutually coming together in a mutual authentic love and without a mutually held meaningful commitment. Because this is how we seek and support the highest good of the other, equally to the self. AND also that of the self, equally to the other. When we relate sexually in mutual authentic love with a mutually meaningful commitment, that is a beautiful thing, fully honouring of each other's sacred humanity.

Thank you for sharing and letting me share in return.
Hopefully that's all clear...if not, please let me know!
Peace & blessings
7L

[angelic star]

Originally Posted by Torgo

OP asked for our thoughts. We took him by his word that he was honestly seeking advice and needed help. How answering him is "selfish and entitled" is a bit of a stretch and maybe just some sort of projection on your part. As a matter of fact, this thread is full of projections. The OP wrote very little and so many assumptions were made about his life and relationship. Scary.

Before picking arguments with others, maybe you need to be clear what the other person is saying. This is what I said earlier on in the post, it is so easy to 'correct' another.

When you say this thread is full of assumptions and you are isolating yourself from it ? That is why you picked on my and other's 'projection'. You think you are not a part of that projection, and have none yourself right ? Because you have a separate opinion about it. We all like to think we know better, and save ourselves. That is why I said we are all guilty of being 'selfish and entitled '

I was saying that people have 'opinions' because we all feel entitled. It was not addressed to the OP in particular. It was said in general. Just like you have opinions, most of us have opinions so we are all selfish and entitled.
My comments were not posted to pick conflicts and arguments with you in particular. It was a thought in general. It was not about what the OP said or what any one person said. Your 'opinion' on my posts hardly would make a difference to me or anyone else I gather ? You are entitled to keep your idea/ opinion about my posts. Just don't quote or address me again. Thanks