In becoming your Being

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by lemex

I normally don't like writing this method nature. But you have so many powerful ideas it couldn't be helped. Some really strong ideas for me! Do you see this linear or about "I". People can manifest and it isn't spiritual but physical, the 3rd eye is an example, LoA is another one. Is it about "I" or our future "I". Do we have to tell ourself we are far more spiritual then we really are that the illusion is want or real joy in the flow of becoming of who is the "I". What about birth and death and birth. Is it ok to think of the future self. Are we not the children reborn after passing, on going. It might be 10,000 years down the line. Becoming!

Oh thankyou for the response, I loved reading what you shared lemex. I kind of started dancing in resonance to a few things so your writing inspired me. Let me see how I go in response. I will try my best, but first this came to me to share with you.

A little experiment arose recently with a group of people in the same room.There was a carved wooden designed (patterned) room divider in the room and someone mentioned the figure eight at the highest point of the divider in all the shapes that were interconnected. Everyone accept myself could see it. All I could see was empty space all around it and lots of creation intermingled throughout the whole design. They were all surprised. And started repeating at me...
"Surely you can see that?" Nope at that moment I couldn't see it. Someone actually went up to it and pointed and traced it, yet I still couldn't see it. I then went on and shared what I could see within all that and all around that, but not the "thing" they were singling out. Again they were stumped and so was I.

A few days later I was back to that place and the one person there with me, finally showed me again this eight figure. I actually moved in closer to the divider this time. I finally could see it. He said something to me which is pivotal and part of my response to you here. He realized with my lack of seeing the other day, that I look into the empty space and the creation forms from there, so to point and single out the one thing, at the highest point, didn't fit your view yet, you were to busy looking into spaces we hadn't even considered in our fixed solid noticing. Today you now see what we see, because the other day you were exploring space beyond the form to actually move closer to the form. And here you are closer to it and you see it. :)

Anyway getting back to your questions, can I ask you this? Does the above example I gave, give answer to whether I experience myself linear? I need to check in first before I go further.

This world? Would you include past and future. Is it on going, a cycle. Birth may be necessary to grow, ie karma for instance.

I can explain my answer this way. I hope it answers your questions.
Most of my own awakening process has been through the vehicle of my current life, so the totality of my process has been through what was current to the accumulation of this lifetime. Using this life in everyway this life affected me and I needed to reflect my wounds and healing. I have unwound myself back to my earliest points which were in the womb before being born, to understand myself and why I was as I was. I call that time my healing time. The time of letting go of what no longer served my future self calling me. (Letting go of the I, that wasn't me) After this time I entered into a re birthing experience, which opened up the process of meeting my newborn self into life once more, only this time I was open fully to feel and experience myself without suppression and without fear in place to reveal myself clear. I call this walk, my reconnection walk, (Bringing the potential I into being to know who I really was, beyond the conditioned I)From there I established a new walk. I call this one "the resurrection of my other "I's" into a new "I". Some call this one the "I am" This walk is the awareness of my mind/body/spirit connection into union, an integration of my total being in this life for this life as I am right now.

Right now I am opening to the potential of myself as this union, I am also aware that now past lives is opening for me, now that I have healed. I am in understanding mode now why I am in this life, what that means and what those around me have been with and to me in the past. I feel like I am immersed as the Akashic records revealing what the importance of my connections right now mean beyond this life alone. So this is the expansion of myself revealing the interconnected weave of life ongoing. I am opening deeper to love, where I am learning all love from previously lives is entering into my space. Every connection ever formed, is starting to show it's face as I am now.

I don't know about karma or whether all I have experienced requires me to label it, I just know I am experiencer who connects the picture as I enter into the space that houses it all. I can describe it only as I experience myself and how it feels and what it means more ongoing as an interconnected relationship both to itself and to other life connected. Life opens I meet myself as I am as I will become ongoing. (this may answer your first questions)

Yes, how deep is life. How deep is the rabbit hole, what is underneath it all. There is only one end or source as you say, only one you (copies).

The depth is infinite, and what moves within all this is more than the self alone. So this depth becomes an interconnected source aware of more than itself in the deeper understanding of life.

Yes, Time/space illusion and the illusion of you right now. The you is a linear now. You are all versions of you so to speak. Personally, I don't like thinking I am.

I suspect through what is opening right now for me to notice the past lives stuff, gives me a bigger perspective upon what is right now. This allows me to move beyond linear to non linear awareness, even as both exist. To actually be experiencing the awareness of this allows me to see that I am constantly coming back to meet myself and all the participants that were and have been. I am blessed that using this life to open and let go, has allowed me to now experience the beautiful moments of past lives now playing out. I am in the connected realm now, I feel connected to myself, so the view is pleasing, not needing to look back as it being my suffering, more the loving streams I missed through the release of my suffering. Walking through my experience, Love and joy have only truly arrived now. I immersed deep into the darkness, which was the way I had to do it, to learn deeper how to free myself complete, to change my entire reality to one of deeper love and loving support.

Nice! How long does it take to experience? How does one experience many experiences? A person can live an entire life one way therefore know only that experience! A person can only have one experience at a time, they are very limited and expensive in our short life span of time. Take a person who wishes to learn mediation, it takes many years to learn. Experience seems to very local in origin.

My process above shows you the depth of experience that has unfolded for me. I have been walking consciously through this for over thirty years. I am living many lives as one in this life. I feel it and know it through the experience of myself. I don't know why, but its just what my life is showing me. I personally find that just being aware and conscious ongoing from within, I open naturally and so does life. I meet myself and then meet life as I am. How I live my life is simply by listening and noticing, not being afraid to experience myself in new ways when it calls. Being an explorer and trusting that I am supported in more than the "normal" physical ideas of support.

Ascension?

Some call it this. When we start labelling our own personal experience, it becomes something, I prefer to be and open process called life itself.

If we are allowed to exist as we are, being ourselves, then why karma? If a person chooses to be limited, should it not be honored? I don't care if there's a God or not. "I" decide. A person does not have to advance and I may want to hang around and have a lot of fun. Are we suppose to see cause and effect? This is a subject of debate for me where I think we're suppose to. We influence each other in ways we deny and change everything. I think it is our obligation to be better to each other in terms of cause and effect.

Whatever we choose is our life and choice. If we need to know more life intervenes and we have more choices most often. I don't know what Karma is within my own process, I can only express how it has been for me, what it feels like and how it might relate to a name people use with specifics. I don't know what God is, but I do know that I am guided by something greater than just my wee self. :). Even as I have learned to integrate all this as myself, I still know their is more to myself than just myself alone. :) I communicate from within, so what flows in the shared creation is creation itself that I have created up to this point. I just feel connected to myself as something greater than myself if that makes sense. We are a complete source and our own life and choices can enjoy many things. The process of your unfolding will be within those choices to learn more choices, to understand life and more of life. To understand yourself and how you wish to be in this life. You can only use what you know and have to use. Until you know more. Personal responsibility comes under the banner of cause and affect. When I am aware and conscious that what I am doing is creating something that I see is not the way I wish it to be, I then have choices to change the way, when you understand the deeper nature of life and you as one, you understand your own personal responsibility greater than just to your own needs and desires alone. We are it, we are life, what we do each day affects the ripple of the whole. So it is wise to make choices that are for the betterment of the whole, not just for your own sole gain. I have learned to respect the whole, respect myself, respect life and others ongoing.

Do you think you are you, the only version of yourself. I haven't heard this discussed much.

What do you mean exactly?

[lemex]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Does the above example I gave, give answer to whether I experience myself linear? I need to check in first before I go further.

Is the past life necessary? Is it necessary to me or others as well in that we are connected? My lesson, our lesson to? Something I can't prove but I think I would be or perceive differently had my experience or experiencing been so, if the experience weren't part of my life and all had been different. So is it linear in this way? Yet if experience had been different and I were different, I wouldn't know it.

I'm going to guess it looked like an 8 and not sorta like an 8. It makes sense what they said, what if you see an 8 and they do not. In a way, you have seen more, you saw what you saw and then you saw the 8. It's nice when you see more and get to see also what other's see to. A bit to philosophical I know. I kinda don't want to get to the point where I see what everyone else sees, especially if it's wrong or it's said ok. You better see this. It is here one must be able to look beyond the eight.

What do you mean exactly?

Again imo some nice reveals. When I ask how many versions I mean the number of times each person returns. The number of times are part of it, they are not as you say wasted.

So well said, the accumulation of this lifetime is in accumulation of the next. It is a journey that takes many cycles. In the accumulation are all the many times (lives), the totality of all that interconnect which really is one. We don't even know how the past is there and as above below. Does it relate here to. Even in this life we don't know how the past (childhood) affects us something I've seen, my figure 8. I see an 8 where others don't. He states a truth.

More choice more often, here I say no because I haven't seen it. I thinks it's when you said ".... in deeper understanding" (of it) which is what my darkness showed and shown me, why. A different level of or to knowledge.

Hope this clarifies the number of times an individual return yet feels a little different but does not know they do. We begin to see the light.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Getting back to the being point I am making. I have noticed that when I grow in myself, I go that deep into my being, that nothing is left in me of process when I allow life to enter into my fullness of being. I go so deep to clear and open myself to a new clarity of space within, that this then, becomes the point of changing my reality as a whole. Not just in part. What I understand of myself in this way, is that I tap into the fullness of my own potential and creation, just by how I allow life to open me and how deep I allow that life to enter into me to break through, release, end and open anew. To me the fullness of creation that is life itself in everyway life is, is the both the source of itself and life itself as I am.

In this way I am aware that I end all bounds of my current reality just by how deep I allow myself to go within and clear, meaning let go, let the whole experience break through, clear out and move me to a new space with such clarity, clear space, forging a new reality. In this way that clarity of being releases the old movements as I have allowed them too be within me..Then I just know, I just trust and I then move forward clear and flowing with life and all life around me, with more choices, new creations and new faces. Of course the old reality forges and integrative connection within all this, so what will grow with, come through that transformation is what decides will be for itself.

In the dark void while the server was down – they’re probably fitting a new string between the cocoa tins – I had some moments to percolate your words. I’ve given up on thinking – it’s a bad, bad deal altogether – I will just be. And things percolate up, drip into the little basket that holds the grounds of the present then, having soaked some up, trickle back to their source, changed

I wasn’t sure about what the title meant so I may have read it wrongly. In becoming what you should be or allowing your being to shine through with some assurance of what it is?

I synchretise with the quote (if I read you right). How can one know one is being, how does one acquaint themselves with their being? It takes us deep into ourselves and, sorry, I have to rely on Freud’s topology to some extent in that to me it’s about trying to relate one’s persona to one’s mysteries. (Some people here seem to think the the public face/persona, the “ego”, is a fixed thing whereas I see it as a process, an exchange between the signs we accept from our surround, and our “subconscious” (our experiential database) that in turn modifies how we receive signs, so there’s a process of expansion.) Perhaps some people have a fixed ego – those who can’t break from a perception that they’re the centre of the universe and believe in a concrete reality that can only change through physical causation. It’s surely a step in spiritual growth to abandon that notion.

From the semiotics viewpoint reality is about how an individual interprets signs relative to their experiences. As those signs are extensions of ourselves anyway we concoct the reality in giving it meaning.

Beneath this persona, lies the vastness of ones interior into which one can withdraw with the hope of clarification or greater understanding of how we assimilate bits of “the outside” – how we are in situations closer to the surface.

Somewhere deep there is a Self, Freud would probably have consigned it to the “unconscious” but where Jung thought of basic drives as archetypes – more than merely biological. Perhaps this is the soul – impossible to get to directly but we can guess through the behaviours and signs we can observe and work our way inward along as far as we can. (I had some help with psychedelic experiences (serious, not recreational) that, while they always threw up different “material”, reached a certain similarity of conclusion.) So I think the actions you hint at are possible, you can change things from within (as far back as you can reach).

It’s a matter of refinement to me, to ask why about an apparent deception, delusion or illusion. Not so much suddenly thinking “Hey, crikey, I’m suffering a delusion” than in the discoveries one makes on the paths (always part of those inner worlds) as a result of contemplation and possible conversation with entities known and unknown And one has the choice to resolve or not. It may not always be possible. As these things are so interlinked changing something here could mean forcing unwanted changes elsewhere.

Well, you've written so much more. I'm a fairly slow reader so, allowing for the server to be down more than up, it may take time assimilate all... Your ideas need time to percolate about.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes and no I would say.

Some people don't see feeding of their unconscious stuff as suffering. Some may see it more as indulging in their pleasures or desires or what brings the happiness at that time.

Of course through the understanding of what is contained within your desires and pursuit of happiness, you unlearn and learn you are suffering in some way eventually.

Unless you understand the nature of yourself in everyway of you being you and why you are being you in that way, it can be difficult to see what is contained within all choices we make.

Of course at certain points of opening, one can learn the nature of all of you, contained within all choices and why it is as it is for them in this way. Removing the veil of illusion tied to human needs and desires I guess you might say, for some, isn't actually perceived as suffering for them.

Hello Naturesflow...very nice observations.
I have been discussing humankind's persistent and underdeveloped heart centre with Jonesboy, a situation which has existed throughout our history and which continues to the present day. We have really only started to discuss it, after laying the groundwork of what this means.

In sum, humanity's underdeveloped heart centre is manifest on the ground, day-to-day, in our relationships with one another...whether fam, friends, strangers, or partners. It is manifest in the degree to which we ourselves manifest authentic love in our being and doing. Toward others equally to ourselves, and vice versa. In actively seeking and supporting their highest good equally to our own, and vice versa. And specifically, whether we manifest and embody agape, a universal love applicable to all, within any and all relationship contexts, no exceptions...unconditional and not dependent on any expectation or requirement. Even though of course social distance and contact varies with different types of relationships, regardless of individuals (i.e., we may only greet the stranger in passing or stop to help out in passing, etc.).

Although humanity at large has struggled with this, it is also true that most of us have at least received agape from some folks at least some of the time, typically from parents...also from children and/or other beloved fam/friends. This is the foundational love that has sustained humanity thus far, however spotty it may or may not be.

But where it has been almost entirely lacking has been male-female relationships, largely devoid of deep, long-term platonic adult friendships throughout history...and largely devoid of agape within arranged partnerships (needs based primarily for economy, legacy and household service) and continuing into more modern utilitarian partnerships (needs based primarily for sex/ego gratification, and to some degree for the traditional reasons stated).


Globally, even to date, and even in modern societies, there always have been and continue to be "special exceptions" to the growing awareness and rising universal call for foundational agape love in all human relationships, but these are (and always have been) most universal and most persistent and pervasive regarding male-female relationships.

These special exemptions continue to be made to accommodate the sexual demand for sexual objects, and to continue to exempt women as fully deserving of authentic love in all relationships. To continue to abrogate our humanity, rather than treating women as fully human in relationship with men -- including allowing for deeply engaged, personal, lifetime agape, non-sexual friendships, now virtually unknown to humanity. And to be valued first and foremost as a person and as a friend, full stop, regardless of gender or "type" of relationship, and certainly without qualifying sexual demands or expectations. And certainly prior to any conjugal relationships where penetration has historically occurred without authentic love and until very recently, without consent (i.e., consent was optional and never required once the partnership was arranged and sanctioned).

As it is, our narcissistic and utilitarian modern culture only promotes and glorifies the dehumanisation which obstructs the free flow of authentic love in being, of agape in ALL situations and to ALL people (both generally speaking and most particularly and universally with regard to male-female relationships). Obstructing the free flow of agape as it should be and already is, in spirit...with NO blanket, up-front exemptions and demands. This is why the historic underdevelopment of the heart centre has morphed into a full-on abrogation for many, who in line with our culture now consciously choose to work around the heart centre or to denigrate it. Their own and certainly the heart centre of others.

As you say, their own denigration of their heart centre is less obvious to many, who are revelling in their way of being and doing. And importantly, many, many of them are increasing consciously choosing to remain in this place of denial and minimisation that you describe. It is much less the case now than in recent decades that these choices are made truly unthinkingly without any awareness, particularly as communication and feedback is exponentially greater and more detailed than in the past.
To me, what you have said above exactly points to this larger issue of actively underdeveloping and abrogating the heart centre of self and others, and why so many then continue to actively promote adding petrol to the raging, consumptive fire. Exactly because their focus is not one of living from centre but rather more of living in denial and minimisation of who they are at centre. Very insightful post!

Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

There is one thing that totally confuses me about all this though...and the past few days have only gone to highlight it...maybe some constructive advice is in order.

My mother is almost impossible to live with...she's always been that way...a seething pile of hatred, criticism and resentment towards everybody and everything!

Just yesterday, she was cleaning the house and screaming obscenities because she was having to do all the work...nobody lifting a finger to help out...and so of course, I was like 'anything I can help you out with, mum? want me to do all that for you? It doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother you..." and she's like "oh no, my dear...I'm fine...you just do what you want...I've got this" and so, I'm like "okay then, whatever...just ask me if you'd like me to help out" and I left it there.

The next minute, she's telling all and sundry what a lazy, irresponsible biotch I am and how I never do anything to help and of course, it all gets back to me. I am like "I offered assistance to you, so that does NOT give you the right to say all of that behind my back...exactly where do you get off doing that?...next time I offer to help, either accept it or else shut your big mouth, okay?"

Another thing is she has to know everything I am doing...all the ins, outs, whys and wherefores...and yet if I ask her the same thing, it's "you just concentrate on what you are doing and I shall concentrate on what I am doing, okay?" in other words, 'mind your own bloody business" but the moment I say the same to her in regards, she gets highly offended.

So, I hardly communicate with her anymore, because as soon as I open my mouth, she shoves a verbal fist into it and compares me to my father.

I am going to see my brother about getting the doctor to review her meds because the anti-depressants she's on just ain't working whatsoever...meanwhile I'm trying to look within myself to try and ascertain why 'work martyrs' bother me so much because one would think if they hated doing something so much as to let it drive them insane...complaining long and loud to whoever is within earshot, they just wouldn't do it, amirite?

[Ariaecheflame]

I am in the endless process of becoming lol - I don't think it ever ends... it just expands to include more beingness!

I feel it is nice to have some sense of integration with a centre point of being though - and expand outwards from there!

Truthfully - though it has taken me MANY lifetimes to integrate with that centre point haha. . . good thing infinity is a very long time because I have only just begun with all the rest of it.

[Shivani Devi]

In as much as I am beginning to understand it, as to what my Higher Self just told me, 'Labor Martyrdom' is a disease affecting many women over the age of 50...my mother has it, my aunt has it, my mother-in-law had it...

Basically it means "I hate myself and my life SO much, let me show everybody how self-righteous and morally superior I can be by making a huge deal out of performing my daily tasks".

They don't want help as much as they crave appreciation and recognition...in fact, any offer of help is highly offensive, as it removes their whole reason for whining in the first place! and they love to whine all about how the universe totally owes them for being born.

Not much you can do about labor martyrs but say "you are doing a good job there" and pat them on the head like a compliant child...maybe give them a gold star on their forehead...if you really want to screw a labor martyr over, you get up before they do and do all the work before they have the chance...but then, they'll probably whine about how you have done it...you have done it 'all wrong' and how they need to do it all again their way anyway...meanwhile, whining about how you can never do anything right and just create more of a mess for them to clean up.

The reason why I hate it so much is because it is the exact opposite to karma yoga and next time, I couldn't care less if people say that I am lazy on the back of unfounded gossip, when I know that I am not...I just will totally agree with them and go 'yep, I am SO lazy, I couldn't give a damn about anybody else but myself, so what are you gonna DO about it?"

In the end, there is only ONE who knows the true story...one who sees everything and I only have to answer to Him in the end.

[Shivani Devi]

I tend to collect these little anecdotes...

Once upon a time, a realised sadhu entered a village begging alms.

About the same time, the unwed daughter of the village chieftan fell pregnant to a low-caste farmer boy.

To protect her beloved, the king's daughter blamed the sadhu for putting her in that condition.

A pitchfork party ensued, the sadhu was captured, charged and put in jail for the crime....they read the charges out, told him he was being put in jail for rape...the sadhu replied; "is that so?"

Months later, the farmer boy was so overcome with guilt...seeing an innocent man and a man of God no less tried for the crime...he confessed and told the chief the whole story...how he and the girl made it all up.

The chief was also overcome with remorse...putting an innocent man in jail...disrespecting a sadhu...and so, he was released, showered with gifts...a party held in his honour, but the saint partook in NONE of it! didn't want a bar of ANY of it! The chief said; "what's wrong with you man? you are free, a free soul...you can do anything you want now" and the sadhu replied; "is that so?" and left the village immediately.

/end story

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I tend to collect these little anecdotes...

Once upon a time, a realised sadhu entered a village begging alms.

About the same time, the unwed daughter of the village chieftan fell pregnant to a low-caste farmer boy.

To protect her beloved, the king's daughter blamed the sadhu for putting her in that condition.

A pitchfork party ensued, the sadhu was captured, charged and put in jail for the crime....they read the charges out, told him he was being put in jail for rape...the sadhu replied; "is that so?"

Months later, the farmer boy was so overcome with guilt...seeing an innocent man and a man of God no less tried for the crime...he confessed and told the chief the whole story...how he and the girl made it all up.

The chief was also overcome with remorse...putting an innocent man in jail...disrespecting a sadhu...and so, he was released, showered with gifts...a party held in his honour, but the saint partook in NONE of it! didn't want a bar of ANY of it! The chief said; "what's wrong with you man? you are free, a free soul...you can do anything you want now" and the sadhu replied; "is that so?" and left the village immediately.

/end story

Ha! this is similar to a zen story.

Is that so.

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbors as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents very angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parents went to the master. “Is that so?” was all he would say.

When the child was born, the parents brought it to the Hakuin, who now was viewed as a pariah by the whole village. They demanded that he take care of the child since it was his responsibility. “Is that so?” Hakuin said calmly as he accepted the child.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth – that the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask his forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back again.
Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: “Is that so?

[sky]

Few words with a deep meaning, just surrender to the present moment
Turn it around, ' So that is '.